New tree climbing language and terms.

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126538 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Here, here! I concur.
Drop the acros, and say what you mean.

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126539 by treeman
Has anyone done a Google on "Traditional climbing system?" Traditional tree climbing system? When defining it against SRT, OK, you have a point of reference. You are probably talking to a climber too.

How about the newbie climber? The book I am writing is targeted at mainstream, not "already climbers."

I am still looking for a name for the hitch pulling tool. I find myself hesitant to name it soley by its function. Any suggestions? Hitch tether?

Elliot- I am aware that the book will set standards and terms much more on solid ground. That is why I am here on the message board getting help from other climbers. I know that I will not please everyone. But I do know I need more than just my own opinions for making decisions about language.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126541 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Howzabout:
"The Hitch Grabber Release(ing) Tool"
or
"The Hitch Release(ing) Tool "
or
"Hitch/Knot Release Tool"
or
"Hitch Loosening Tool"
or
"Hitch/Knot Loosening Tool."

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126542 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic What is the goal?
posted on 7-12-2005 at 01:00 AM by Treeman:
The book I am writing is targeted at mainstream, not "already climbers."

posted on 5-12-2005 at 07:35 PM by Oldtimer:
Since you mentioned that you are writing a "basic" and "Introductory book" I suggest you go w/ the basic and simple terms….

Assuming Oldtimer’s premise is true (and Treeman’s quote indicates that it is), his advice indeed is important.

Now:
posted on 6-12-2005 at 12:56 AM by Treeman:
Hitch pulling tool:
A device for pulling down the Blakes[sic] hitch be it for a self rescue when the bridge is too long (beyond reach) or for rescue purposes when another climber needs to automatically pull down the Blakes[sic] hitch on the victim's system as in a tandem rescue event.

Is there a disconnect here? What is the target audience, again?

Maybe this is why there is so much disagreement as to whether the prospective reader would be competent to understand such very advanced confusing terms as DdRT. If a discussion of commonly used acronyms is beyond the capabilities of the reader, why then is a discussion of a “hitch-pulling tool” justified? They can’t deal with the complexities of a four-letter acronym, but they must be educated in how to perform a “tandem rescue event?”

I’m unclear as to how my Blake’s hitch got out of reach, anyway: If my arm pushed it up there, it should be able to reach it to release it. If not, there already are established, simple self-rescue methods for retying it. Maybe I’ve been darned lucky, but I’ve not had the problem for the admittedly only few years I’ve been climbing.

A good friend of mine says, “If you don’t know where you’re going, it’s kinda hard to tell when you get there.” I don’t mean that disrespectfully; I do mean that it is necessary to stay mindful of the target audience.

Maybe what is being created really is two books--maybe more. Maybe it’s a much more involved and longer book than originally envisioned. These can be good things!

Peace.

Jim

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126545 by oldtimer
Replied by oldtimer on topic In Agreement
If the book is a "Basic" and "introductory" book. I do not see the issue of special rescue tools w/ fancy names or special techniques seldom encountered by the beginner climber.

Now if the book is targeted to a larger more experienced RTC climbing audience group including even some new arborists then the additional use of rescue tools, Double Rope Techniques (DdRT) and Single Rope Technique (SRT), basic and advanced rescue and some rigging ideas are recommended. I visualize that the basic climber should be always accompanied by an advanced climber or instructor that should inspect and verify the gear proper use, so that rescue situations are not needed under normal conditions.

For once I see the point that JimK makes. KISS => Keep it Simple Señor. I learned a lot of the basics from the Tree Climbers Companion and IMHO I think that the way the info is organized there is very nice and proper to facilitate the learning for the student even a self taught climber.

The info is introduced in small steps and the reader is encouraged to try a basic idea before moving forward to the next topic. I am not proposing that your book be a copy of that one since I believe from our small conversations in Oregon that yours will have more of a personal touch with anecdotes and small stories included in the education process to make a point or to illustrate and clarify a concept.

Good Luck and I hope that I am not coming across as a mean-spirited-jerk but that our "suggestions" will help guide you in a positive way on this difficult task. Remember that you mentioned your ADD as a reason why staying still and on topic has been one of your life challenges but it has also pushed you to try new adventures in life that we common folks are afraid to even try. Keep up the good work.

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126546 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Good points all.
The bridge getting beyond reach has happened several times at the school. It created the need for a second person to go up and get them down.

The 11mm ropes are more prone to creep too. I have had my bridge lenghten too long on a number of occasions, a few of which I needed to use the hitch pulling tool to safely get down. On two occasions I was in the middle of a long down pitch with no branches near to swing back to and not enough energy to go back up.

The book is approaching intermediate levels in material content. A basic of basic book was seeming not to serve my purposes as I went along. I may possibly be getting too technical. My peer reviewers will help me see the light more clearly.

Again thanks for all of the feedback. I still have a number of terms yet to mention. I hope you all do not mind me bouncing all of these new terms off of you.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126547 by moss
Replied by moss on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
It appears that this book will not be one or the other, and that's good. In other words a well written book on this subject will be useful to beginners, intermediate and advanced climbers. After all even the advanced climbers may not know everything or might want to confirm something they already know. I like a book that I can go back to over again and learn something new when I'm ready for it. Looking at it this way it's not inconsistent to be nailing down basic terms and to be talking about more advanced technique in the same book. In that regard the concept of DRT could be introduced for the beginner and in a more advanced section the finer points of DdRT vs. other rope techniques can be talked about. Never underestimate the intelligence of beginners (I doubt that Peter does) they can handle unfolding complexity during the learning process.
-moss

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126554 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I also like a good multi-level book to refer back to.

The success of "On Rope" is a good proof of this concept working.

Let all your knowledge flow Peter in to the book. You never know what the future holds.

P.S. Give us some more terms Peter.

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126556 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic New term.
Return swing

This is the natural motion of swinging back to your higher anchor point (TIP). Let's say you walk out on a branch a few feet and step off and swing back to the tree to hang from your primary anchor. That would be a return swing. The swing gets harder the further you venture out. Now we are getting into geometry, angles and such.

There are ways to safely control the return swing of course. That is a different subject. Tarzan and George of the Jungle lives only on the movie screen.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126557 by leon123
Replied by leon123 on topic New tree climbing language and terms.

Originally posted by Treeman
Return swing

Tarzan and George of the Jungle lives only on the movie screen.



Tarzan maybe, but I've pulled a few George of the Jungle moves before. Ouch!

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126562 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
How about:

"Primary TIP Line Return "
or
"Primary TIP Line Return Arc"
or
"Primary Anchor Line Rebound"
or
"Line Return Tendency toward Main TIP
or
"Line Return Swing Tendency toward Main Stem"

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126563 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Plumb Line Effect.

Would you like a lanyard spliced up, or anything else for that matter??? Give me a call- 323-384-7770 or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126568 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic swingin'
No question about it, a physicist would immediately describe the situation as a pendulum. So if one really wants to give this effect a name, I suggest “pendulum effect.”

However, I don’t have an understanding of why we would want to name it: It seems to me that we name things so we can have a “shorthand tag” to assign to them so we don’t have to use a lot of words each time we want to identify the subject. For example, we use the acronym RADAR instead of saying “radio detection and ranging.” But we couldn’t stop there because we would have to define that “radio” is “a means by which data or information is transmitted by a wireless electromagnetic method . . . .” Then we would have to define all the other words until we got back to root words that everyone understood.

If, indeed, “pendulum effect” need be referred to many times, it probably should be named. I just don’t see the application.

This makes me wonder how many more things we’ll believe it is necessary to name. For example, should we name the situation where, after climbing for a few minutes, we become tired and have to stop for a breather? After all, that happens frequently (at least it does at my age). Because that happens a lot, maybe we really should name it. How about calling that the “GISAP” (pronounced “giss-app” (with a soft “g”)) effect? That stands for “gee, I sure am pooped.”

The GISAP is to be differentiated from “GIALBT” (gee, I’m a little bit tired.” The latter occurs only when we’re climbing alone. As we all know, when we’re climbing alone, we’ll probably stop when we get a little tired. But when climbing with someone else, we don’t want to admit that we’re tired, so keep pressing on so as to outlast whomever else we’re climbing with. (We could call it the “ME” (macho effect), but that’s too simple.)

I am most willing to present a few dozen more of these doubtless necessary terms for your consideration. I know I’ll receive many requests.

This brings me to one I thought of upon awakening this morning (tree climbing is forever in my mind): We earlier discussed the acronym “TIP,” which I recommended instead of “anchor point” or something like that. I now have changed my mind. TIP is accurate for SRT (is it okay to use that term, or has it been banned yet?), but for DdRT (now I’m really in trouble), it is not a tie-in point: We’re not tied there.

So, for DdRT, I suggest the acronym “BTYHYRA,” which, I’m sure you already have recognized, stands for “branch that you have your rope across.” Now I know that one--or maybe two--of you who are so very contrary will be shouting, “But how would you pronounce that?!” Obviously, it is pronounced “bitty-high-ra.” In daily use, we would, for example, say to the beginning climber we are instructing, “See that branch about 35 feet up, on the left--the one that slopes up at about 30 degrees? Use that as your BTYHYRA.” Now, isn’t that much easier and more accurate? Not only have you told him/her where to place the throw line, you also have told him/her to use DdRT instead of some other method.

So I’m truly stoked and ready for more terms! Here’s one more: For some time now, some of you have been thinking of “WDYSUAJC--(pronounced “widdy-sue-a-jack)--(“why don’t you shut up and just climb”)?

Peace.

Jim

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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126569 by Tom Dunlap
Replied by Tom Dunlap on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
That's a good write-up about acronyms :)

TIP is pretty well accepted to mean the primary place where the climber's rope is secured. The most secure and highest point where the rope is placed. Thi smight not be exactly technically correct, you are right, we're tied in at the saddle, but it works well enough...at least I think it does :)

Strong limbs and single ropes!
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16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126571 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Specific names, terms.
Return swing
This is a basic move, not an effect. If I was to tell a student to get ready for a return swing, they would know they were preparing to return to their anchor point (TIP). Naming moves is a kind of shorthand, especially for the instructor. It also serves to define. This is not to say everything one can do in a tree is going to be named or defined. But important moves, actions, etc. needs some kind of differentiation. Specific language makes it much easier to pass down information to future generations too.

The martial arts makes use of defining language. Specific moves are named and handed down for many generations. Sometimes the names keep their original national origin intact. Classic Japanese martial art forms are still sometimes taught in the native tongue, even though it is being taught to other cultures.

The point is to find a few short words to serve as a term. This brings up a quick mental image without need of a lengthy explanation. When the term becomes popular language, the idea lives much longer.

Cavers, rock climbers, builderers, base jumpers etc. have specific language. Tree climbers need their own language too. Some terms can of course be shared with other activities, like “biners” for example. But there will be many things tree climbers do that is specific in nature to tree climbing alone, even recreational tree climbing to be more specific.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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