New tree climbing language and terms.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126455 by oldtimer
Replied by oldtimer on topic What is that "d" for
I assumed it means Doubled.
Used to describe the use of both ends of the rope in climbing.
The Dymanic part/use is new to me.

For the other term; "Going Down TIP" sounds clear to me. You are relocating your TIP to a lower position while descending from the top of the tree.

Hope this helps, Treeman.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126456 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic Advancing
As I have seen it used, "Dd" means Doubled.

It seems to me that it doesn't make any difference which way one is moving in the tree--up, down, laterally--one still is advancing the rope; they are advancing the rope in the direction they want to go.

I appreciate all the attention being paid to detail here; I just hope we don't get bogged down with too much nit-picking and side issues. (I have a lot of experience in doing those things, so am quite aware of the dangers!)

Peace.

Jim

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126457 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I remember back when I was first learning by reading the books, mainly Jepson, On Rope, Flowers' and studying the thread sites, I constantly had to go back and re-read all the terms being used, just to understand what was being said. If these books were for beginners also, then why should it have been so difficult?

Why are we trying to capsulize these specific functions of climbing into one or two or three not very descriptive words? Peter's statement above, although unknowingly, is a great example: "...resetting your rope placement during a down pitch" is already a GREAT description, so why capsulize it into a new two or three word, unclear or difficult, phrase?(re-setting TIP?, going down TIP?, etc.) This only causes the reader/climber(especially the beginner) to be unclear or even confused and to have to constantly go to the Glossary to clarify what could have been just as easily described in only 3-4 words already, such as what Peter described above in the first place: "resetting rope placement on descent". --See that wasn't so long, was it? ---And yet was very clear, right?

I think we need to move away from coining new phrases just to seem more professional or save typing space or not having to repeat a few words or whatever other unimportant reason,
and concentrate on allowing the reader, whether beginner or advanced, to be crystal clear as to meaning, which is much more important. After all, his very life may depend upon it!!

There's an old expression that says, "Say what you mean and mean what you say", that we should all remember.

BTW, 'DRT' means, according to the norms on Treebuzz, Double Rope Technique, which means using two separate ropes where one is a backup, whereas, DdRT means Doubled Rope Technique which means one rope doubled over an anchor point.

I still don't like these Acronyms. This is a great case in point above. Especially since all of us are still unclear, even those who are very experienced, as to the meaning of DRT and DdRT, which is one of the basic foundational principles of tree climbing, and as such, should already be very well understood by all of us, right? And if not clear to so many, why not?---Because of the unclear Acronym!!

Please let's describe, rather than coin phrases!

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126466 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Charlie makes some good points, I think.

We should consider, though, that acronyms such as "TIP," and phrases such as "advancing the rope" already are established--it's not that we'd be creating new ones.

The beginner (and everyone else) is going to have to get used to them some time, so it might as well be from the git-go.

I do appreciate the dilemma.

A well written book could introduce them, explain them clearly, and use them in contexts where the reader would learn painlessly.

Peace.

Jim

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • J~Bird
  • J~Bird's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126476 by J~Bird
Replied by J~Bird on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
DdRT= doubled dynamic rope technique
as in blakes, split tails, when your rope is moving trough the TIP as you climb

DbRT= doubled rope technique as in secured footlock, where your rope is static in the TIP as you climb on both legs of the rope as they hang down parallel to each other.

These are old acronyms. They are quite frequently misused/interchanged in postings leading to confusion.

DRT can be either of those above, or as Charlie points out, it can imply two seperate climbing systems employed simutaneously.

HUH= Huge Urban Hemlock (FYI Harry!!)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126481 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Jay, I've never seen "DbRT" before--where have you run across it? Also, since it means the same thing as "DRT," why would someone create or use the term?

Maybe I've seen DdRT defined as you say, but my recollection (quite possibly fallible) is that the lower-case "d" was the terminal letter of "doubled." Why would someone choose to create an acronym and have the word "dynamic" be abbreviated with a lower-case letter when the other words use upper case? Doesn't make sense.

I was hesitant to even bring all this up--it's certainly nit picking and probably of no importance. (And I definitely don't want to be nit picking with my mentor!)

But I am curious about this.

I wonder where the ultimate authority on this is? Maybe this will be one of those unanswerable mysteries!

Peace.

Jim

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126483 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I don't like the DbRT version. I don't know how others do it, but here's how I'd like it done (how whiney do I sound right now :D )

DDRT: Like when you're footlocking a doubled line. Both Ds are capital. Both are the same, like when footlocking, both ends of the line are doing the same thing.

DdRT: Like when climbing with a Blakes. One end is doing something a little different than the other.

Does this jive with what any of y'all think?

love
nick

Would you like a lanyard spliced up, or anything else for that matter??? Give me a call- 323-384-7770 or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126484 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I think the founders/fathers of our culture are the authorities, especially since there is so little written about our culture/industry.
Perhaps Tom Dunlap or Peter, et al can shed some light on these acronyms.
I don't believe they are ANSI approved terms and therefore are simply accepted because of common use over the years. Unfortunately, I think, that just as quickly as they are formed and used, so too they are forgotten or confused. So we must ask the fathers to chime in.

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126485 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I also like Nick's way, except what would it be if you have two separate lines? Nick?
DDDRT?

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Patrick
  • Patrick's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126489 by Patrick
Replied by Patrick on topic DRT and DdRT
I hadn't ever seen DbRT until Peter typed it, and I first assumed it was a typo.

I just noticed that Sherrill's new rec climber catalogue uses the term DdRT on page 15 to described climbing with a Blake's. (Not that we should be led by an equipment company, but I just thought it was interesting.)

Patrick

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • treeman
  • treeman's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126492 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Consensus needed here around DdRT.
DdRT

I hope everyone understands why this subject is so important here. I coined the letters DRT long ago to coincide with SRT. It was to diferentiate the two techniques from each other. It stood for "double rope technique."

We now have the phrase "doubled rope technique" as the description. It may seem as a small thing but to me it is a big deal, because the book I am writing will pretty much set the language for future new climbers. This is why I am coming to the tree climbing community for clarification.

It appears that "DdRT" is what language people want spoken.

Please make your thoughts known if you have not done so yet. I come to this topic many times a day as I write to keep updated. I have a long list of words still to post but this DdRT thing is the foundation of our style of climbing.

Thank you all for participating here. It really is helpful getting other viewpoints rather than just using my view alone without feedback.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126495 by charlieb
Replied by charlieb on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
When I was first learning, I thought logically the first time I saw the letters DRT that it meant "Double Rope Technique" with the emphasis on the idea that it described a 'technique' and not what the rope was doing. Then, when I saw for the first time on another thread the letters "DdRT", I also logicked(?) that this meant Doubled Rope Tech. which I logically thought this meant that the rope was doubled, as in two parallel lines running through a device like a rescue 8 descent device or two completely separate lines. I was totally shocked and confused to learn that the accepted norms from the prof. arborists was the total opposite.
Therefore, my two cents is in support of Peter's original coining, that we should only have one acronym, "DRT", to describe the technique of doubling a rope over an anchor and creating a 2 to 1 advantage in order for the climber to use all traditional hitch type setups.
Also, therefore, I believe we should completely drop the "DdRT" acronym and in its place, simply describe all other setups, like using two separate lines or parallel lines simply doubled for footlocking, etc.

Safe climbin.
Charlie Brown.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • jimk123
  • jimk123's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126504 by jimk123
Replied by jimk123 on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I don't see introducing new acronyms as favorable at this date in the history of RTC, but one came to mind: LRT as Looped Rope Technique. This captures a visual description of what takes place with the DdRT. It can be defined as a dynamic loop. It's differentiated from the two static rope scenarios described as DRT: 1)foot locking on a doubled rope 2) two ropes used as lifelines.

I see two guiding principles on nomenclature for RTC:
1) use nomenclature that promotes respect of a living organism
2) use nomenclature that connects with the general public entering RTC.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126509 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
More thoughts to while away your time . . . .

Speaking of new terminology, I often describe DdRT as “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.” Maybe we could call it the “bootstrap technique.”

New Tribe’s web site uses “DRT” for Doubled Rope Technique.

I don’t think **** Flowers uses any abbreviations.

Jeff Jepson uses the acronym “SRT,” but doesn’t use an acronym for the dynamic system--simply calls it the “dynamic” system. Maybe we could call it the “dynamic system” and not use an abbreviation.

Someone might want to examine the professional’s sites in detail to see what they do. Charlie did report that DdRT seems to be the norm on Tree Buzz. How about ArboristSite and others?

Peace.

Jim

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 years 6 months ago - 16 years 6 months ago #126510 by Tom Dunlap
Replied by Tom Dunlap on topic DdRT
Bfore you read any further you might want to get some hearing protection...I'm going to toot my own horn...I'll try to make it a short toot :)

Toot...

There, now, onto some old history.

Quite a while ago, I believe on the original ISA discussion forum from about ten years ago this whole DRT chatter got going. After some thrashing of terms it was agreed that DRT would mean either a dynamic or traditional climbing hitch system or one where a rope is 'D'-ouble-'d' over the tie in point...I'll get to that later...

Go and google "double rope technique" I think that you'll find that it is a rock climbing style used mostly in the UK where two seperate ropes are used to support the climber. Each of the ropes is called a 'half-rope' because they are each a bit smaller. The reason for the two ropes is more safety and security.

If follows that single rope technique uses only one rope to secure the climber.

Designating the term DdRT has been one of my causes. It cleans up the description of the climbing system. Tobe changed the catalog description after I wrote to him a while ago.

Is there an arguement for 'not' using DdRT to designate the traditional tree climbing arrangement? With close to a decade of history it seems to make sense to continue to use this form.

Google gives this for 'DdRT rope'

http://tinyurl.com/d86xq

I submitted the definition for DdRT. The SRT article that I wrote for TCI magazine is linked too.

Google gives this for 'double rope technique'

http://tinyurl.com/bkrp2

Google gives this for 'double rope technique'

http://tinyurl.com/8pxd7

Strong limbs and single ropes!
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.933 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum

Join Our Mailing List