New tree climbing language and terms.

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126421 by treeman
New tree climbing language and terms. was created by treeman
This is the start of a thread where I will be presenting new terms that will appear in the tree climbing book that I am writing. These terms are being created to describe, label, and clarify information. It will help instructors as well as those learning from the book directly.

Established terms need looking at too.

Everyone is invited to comment; be they seasoned climbers or new climbers just getting up in the treetops with rope and harness.

Let's start with a basic term. This is a revisiting to this term and I am not decided yet which way to go.

DRT or DbRT?

How would you speak it on the street?

Do climbers often confuse DRT with the mountaineering style or with secured foot lock? Would they know that much?

Do we need the DbRT or stand with DRT?

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126422 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
When I began reading about climbing, I would see only “DRT” for RTC; then I would see the same term in mountaineering-related articles and wonder how on earth that method applied to RTC. I don’t remember how long I spent scratching my head about this until I finally ran across a description of “DdRT,” which then cleared things up for me.

Since then, I have grown to appreciate the value of the acronym DdRT; it’s what I always use.

My thinking about this goes back to a basic rule (for me, anyway), which is to respect a term that already has established usage, and not to attempt to redefine it if there could be confusion. This might not be of high value to the seasoned or the expert, but it surely is of value to the novice.

I would agree that words/terms are to be interpreted in their context, yet, for the uninitiated, “DRT” has to do with ropes, and there certainly must not be any difference between rope usage in RTC, or rock climbing, or fire and rescue, or . . . . After all, it’s ropes . . . isn’t it? (You and I know better, but most people don't.)

Because of this, in a way, I disagree with Treeman when he says, “Established terms need looking at too.” If they indeed are established terms, I generally don’t think we need to look very much; just use the already-established term unless there is a truly overriding reason not to.

Also, Treeman wrote “DbRT,” when the term I’m used to is “DdRT.” I assume that was just a typo?

What do I say “on the street?” “Dee dee are tee.”

I definitely vote for "DdRT."

Peace.

Jim

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126423 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Anyone else?
Thanks JimW. You are certainly on top of this conversation concerning language.

Typo it was. DbRT.

What do others call it on the street?

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126424 by Tom Dunlap
Replied by Tom Dunlap on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Peter,

This is something that I brought up a few years ago. In my SRT article for TCI magazine I went into the details of naming the traditional arbo technique as Doubled rope Technique. We don't have a double rope, that means two ropes like rock climbers. Our ropes are doubled over the tie in point.

It has become more and more used lately. Look in the Sherrill rec catalog. DdRT...

Strong limbs and single ropes!
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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126426 by Patrick
Replied by Patrick on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I'd also go with DdRT. That's not what I initially learned, but after climbing with Tom Otto I changed my mind. He climbed DRT (climbed on both strands of the same rope using the double footlock) while I climbed DdRT (Blake's hitch). We obviously both couldn't have been doing DRT.

Patrick

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126431 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Thanks for input. Another language question.
Thanks guys. I apreciate the input. here's a new one.

TIP (tie in point) or anchor point. Anchor point is a caving term. While training double rope end climbing I label my anchor points as anchor A and anchor B to define currnet anchor in use from anchor point soon to be used.

What is a better definition of an place of life support attachment- an anchor point or a tie in point?

What is said out in the street?

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126433 by jimk123
Replied by jimk123 on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I've always preferred the acronym TIP over the use of the word anchor. Anchor implies a interface between a mechanical device and a natural hold like a crevice. That mechanical device may impart some degree of damage and remains a point of debate for rock climbers.

Being aware that we're climbing a living organism, it would be appropriate to differentiate some terms that are mindful and promote respect of the tree. A TIP is a natural hold where a rope used as a life-line is appropriately wrapped and secured. An anchor could be nailing a piton or a similar device for advancement. If a rope can't be used on a natural TIP, then perhaps this living organism shouldn't be climbed. It's more about respect than using an array of anchors to meet a challenge.

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126439 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
I see an anchor as something i build/create. A TIP is more appropriate for what we do in the tree. I'm with Jim!

love
nick

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126446 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Great input. Anyone else have a viewpoint?
Thanks again. This is all useful input. Does anyone else have input to offer here?

A change of format here please.
Please start your reply with the word or term in question on the top line. It will make referencing much easier, as some people might want to comment on a term or word previously mentioned.

Idea behind term in question: Changing pitches (DbRT setting) during a climb. Is it a
1. Transfer
2. Re-crotching
3. Switch-over
4. TIP number 2 (tie in point)

What would you call it in a word or two?

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126447 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic Advancing the rope
As for

Changing pitches (DbRT setting) during a climb. Is it a
1. Transfer
2. Re-crotching
3. Switch-over
4. TIP number 2 (tie in point)


Flowers uses "advancing the rope." I've heard/seen that term other places. I like it.

BTW, Treeman, you're still typing DbRT instead of DdRT.

Peace.

Jim

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126448 by moss
Replied by moss on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Anchor vs. TIP
I had no previous background in rock climbing, caving or technical tree climbing when I first heard the term "anchor" in reference to tree climbing. It made sense to me in the tree climbing context as a point of security which I could hang my life on. While TIP is a more literal description I generally oppose POA (proliferation of acronyms) (LOL) and find "tie-in-point" to be a mouthful. I realize that in the arborist world that TIP is frequently used. For the non-technical or beginner climber I think "anchor" will have more resonance. To me the metaphor pre-dates any kind of climbing usage, is rooted in maritime use and carries that meaning well for any activity. So I'll continue to go with the term that is easier to say and carries the meaning of secure attachment. It is probable that there will be some splitting of terminology between arborists and rec climbers over time.

Something else to think about: if TIP is to be standard should "artificial anchor" be changed as well? The term artificial anchor implies that there is a real or natural anchor.

To DRT or not to DdRT
Unfortunately DdRT does not distinguish between throwing a rope over a branch and footlocking both sides of the rope (classic arborist ascent) and doubled rope technique with friction hitch used in rec climbing. Aren't they both doubled rope technique? Putting that aside and being in a contrary mood I'll argue that DdRT is a more specific technical description but a poor use of expected acronym rules. I don't know of any common acronyms that include the last letter (d) of the first word in the acronym. DRT is certainly a valid acronym for Doubled Rope Technique. LgOL!!! (Laughing Out Loud).

Context provides meaning and efficiency in language usage. Acronym confusion (DRT) between rock climbing and tree climbing is not an issue IMHO.
-moss

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126450 by harrywbarnhurst
Replied by harrywbarnhurst on topic DdRT
Moss,

I may have missed something. What is the lower case d stand for. I was just thinking of making one of the D's stand for Dynamic so we could have Double dynamic Rope Technique or the one I prefer Dynamic double Rope Technique. I think that the dynamic part of the name is pretty descriptive of our "doubled over the TIP or Anchor" and using a friction hitch as opposed to the using a Prussik on the doubled up rope along with the double footlock mentioned earlier; that would be static at least from my perspective. Hey did I just hear a collective HUH? That isn't an acronym, it just means HUH. Oh well, I better quit while I am ahead. Have a great day everyone and be well!

In Peace,

Legolas

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126451 by moss
Replied by moss on topic New tree climbing language and terms.
Interesting, I thought DdRT stands for "Doubled Rope Technique" but I'm no authority :-)

I Googled DdRT and tree climbing and found several references that equate DdRT with doubled rope technique.

Following Harry's line of thought and adding a "parent child" structure you could look at a DRT meaning cascade as follows:

Parent
DRT = Doubled Rope Technique
Child or descendant (more specific)
DDRT = Doubled Dynamic Rope Technique
DSRT = Doubled Static Rope Technique

In a geeky mood,
-moss

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126453 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic What does the d mean?
DdRT

So what exactly does this second "d" mean? It's DdRT right? My mild dyslexia does get an upper hand of me at times.

Does the d stand for the last word of doubled or dynamic?

Yours,
Treeman in DUH mode.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 9 months ago - 14 years 9 months ago #126454 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Advancing the rope question.
Advancing the Rope

What if you were resetting your rope placement during a down pitch? What would you be doing? What term would apply?

Re- crotching
Re-setting
Reverse advancement
Down TIP
Going down TIP
Down anchor
Stayin' alive (for the 60's generation)

I am regressing to chatter. Or digressing, or redressing. One of 'em surely!

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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