Rope techniques acronyms and confusions

More
7 years 3 months ago #136973 by yoyoman
Replied by yoyoman on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
What Bing is referring to is that even DdRT is still on a single line. :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136975 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
He does, but i feel he goes a bit more far than that.

The Bing wrote: Ddrt is fine to say but it cannot be used in contrast to SRT. It is SRT.


From what i undestand Kevin thinks that there are no major differences
- where the fixed end of the rope is attached is a detail
- even being static or dynamic is a detail

The Bing wrote: I don't think distinguishing between static and dynamic really is helpful except when deciding what tools to use on your single line.


To him the main point is the safety. With any form of SRT, regardless they are static or not, attached to the tree or anywhere else, if you cut the rope in tension, you fall.

He is also making his point about gear and climbing regulation. To him any fixed SRT gear should be usefull in DdRT and vice versa as DdRT is SRT. Plus classical SRT shouldn't be depreciated when DdRT is at the same time valorized as a safe solution. Like it is the case in some european countries.

The Bing wrote: My feeling is that not so much emphasis should be put on which style of SRT is being used as the margin of safety is the same for all forms of SRT and it leads to confusion with people saying that one form is better than another and certain rules should apply to one form of SRT but not another form of SRT. That's what drives me nuts. SRT is SRT.


I hear his point a lot as in France when i tryed climbing in classical SRT with instructors most of them had eyes like ping pong balls because they think it is an hazardous way to climb if you're not trained like a legionnaire... it is in our culture the extremist way of climbing that must be reserved to highly specialised arborists or tropical canopy researchers. To them DdRT or secured footlock with two prusiks are way safer than SRT. But it is a non sense as it is still SRT in both cases. Cut one side of the rope and you'll fall... "and you must have proper gear adapted to it" well yeah, like with any other climbing system...

That's also why they can be scratching their head too when the see geocachers using classical SRT setups. These guys never tooked a basic tree climbing course and are using a method they avoid. I'm glad geocachers do that way, it may change a lot in french and european recreational tree climbing.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by bradypus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136976 by yoyoman
Replied by yoyoman on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
In the end it is only a way of starting a conversation so one can get an idea of what is being used.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by yoyoman. Reason: Short basic answer
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136977 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Yep! For sure.

You know if they came up with another acronym, like TRT (two rope technique), it would probably be easier for folks, because DRT (dual rope technique) sounds so much like double or doubled rope technique. Anyway, just my two cents.
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136984 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Wow! You won’t find this kind of in-depth conversation on Facebook!

My take on this conversation:

First, a complaint:
Please stop posting professional or advanced video climbing techniques here. They are complex, not easy to learn, and confusing. Post them on treebuzz.com or arboristsite.com. The way the techniques in the video (posted in this thread) were presented was very brief, with lousy educational content: no step-by-step instruction. The techniques shown should be carefully practiced while low to the ground. Fast music and fast climbing in a video invite disaster for new climbers seeking to be cool and “up to date.” Inexperienced climbers are not yet fully aware of what is safe and what isn’t!

About the different climbing systems:

DRT -- When I first introduced the concept of recreational tree climbing in 1983, I needed a name for the climbing system, so I called it DRT, double rope technique. I wanted an acronym that was easy to remember. Thus DRT: Climbing with a rope looped over a branch, an adjustable loop made shorter or longer using a friction hitch (we used the taught line hitch in the early days- a poor performing knot).
About 5 years later, Tom Dunlap of treebuzz.com fame (co-founder) corrected me, saying DRT was a fixed rope climbing system used by rock climbers. Oops! My bad! So he coined the more precise acronym, DbRT. But the DRT term was well into use by then as it is today.

DREC -- An acronym I termed long ago as double rope-end climbing, climbing with both ends of your rope: two separate anchor points using DbRT. About 5 years into my TCI teaching, a Jewish climber asked me if I knew what DREC meant in Yiddish/Hebrew (not sure which). I said, “No…tell me.” He said, “Uhhh… excrement”. Oops! My bad!! No fooling…no drec!

SRT -- Single Rope Technique. Perfected by cavers and some rock climbers. Now used extensively in tree climbing, especially climbing the tall trees. The rope does not move. Aerial or basal (tree base) anchors.

SREC -- New term. Way to go Dennis! Climbing with both ends of the rope using SRT methods. I have used this technique for multi-pitch bushy-tree climbs. It saves the tree from rope friction (moving rope) and the rope isolation necessary for DbRT technique.

Dual friction hitches: Probably useful for production tree work, but I never tried it in my 25 years as a production climber.
Me personally, I am a bit old school, but I do climb with some of the new hybrid systems. I keep going back to traditional techniques, though. They are intuitional to me, as well as what I teach to new students. I do teach split tail, which is a modified DbRT system.

Bradypus and everyone else: Please title your future technique discoveries as “here’s something new” or something of that sort rather than trying to sell a new concept of climbing. Don’t glamorize new technique! It’s important for all of us to remember that new climbers are looking at the TCI Forums for basic understanding. Throwing in a complicated system without careful explanations is not useful or safe for a lot of readers. And experimenting with new technique high in a tree is fraught with danger.
This is not meant to discourage anybody for publicizing new ideas on these Forums. We just need to make clear that they are NEW and should be carefully investigated. If you have an advanced technique or something new that you like, label it as such…”something new.” But please -- don’t suggest it is the way of the future, or it is the “truth.”

DbRT (traditional method) is the foundation of all tree climbing technique. I think all climbers should start with basic technique before expanding to new methods.

There will be lots of innovative climbing techniques in the future, as evidenced by all the new gear. However, in dealing with new technique, my approach is always:
Start low
Start slow
Then grow

Peter "Treeman" Jenkins

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus, Tree-D

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136986 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic Rope techniques acronyms and confusions
Hi Peter, thank you a lot for your answer, it really helps to understand where acronyms in use came from.

I'm sorry for the videos, it was just to show what i was trying to describe. I've edited my first post to put them away and make a warning about not taking rope technic descriptions as practical receipes. Tell me if it needs to be done some other way.

I wasn't trying to sell anything, for sure dual friction hitch system we use is not for early beginners and requires a proper course (i will edit this post too to make it clear). I didn't understood this board to be devoted to beginners, i will take care to not talk about advanced techniques.

I'll pay attention. And thanks again for your informations, it's so interesting.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by bradypus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136987 by Tree-D
Replied by Tree-D on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Out of respect for Peter's very reasonable request to be careful about encouraging new/advanced techniques, and since I'm the one who mentioned using both ends of your SRT line to advance in pitches, let me say--now and forever, immortalized here on the oracle of wisdom that is the internet:

Climbing in multiple SRT pitches (SREC) is a very advanced SRT technique! I learned it during an "Advanced SRT for Redwoods" class, and I had many hours of SRT experience in redwood trees before taking that class. Make no mistake... climbing that way is a real puzzle to solve, and is dangerous! Even after taking that class, and practicing it under the close supervision of Tim, I would never dare to do it solo. I would only ever do it again if I was within close sight of a climbing buddy who had ALSO been trained to climb that way so that we could talk through it together. If you want to learn how to climb that way... don't learn it on the internet! Take an Advanced SRT class, please!

Sincerely,
-Dennis
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136988 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Lots of good points here.

I believe the reason this DRT (Dual Rope Technique) thing has come up has to do with the needs of industry regarding vertical disciplines. That is, insurance companies have to come up with a way to minimize risk in professions which are inherently dangerous. They have statistics to back up their reasoning that there needs to be a better way to prevent falls.

Also, at the end of the day, all the good hard-working people who spend their working lives aloft want to come home safe and sound to their families.

That's what this is all about.
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136989 by yoyoman
Replied by yoyoman on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion

treeman wrote:
My take on this conversation:

First, a complaint:
Please stop posting professional or advanced video climbing techniques here. ...

Peter "Treeman" Jenkins


Thanks for the guidance in this Peter, I can get a little carried away.

Richard

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136995 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
I have no problem with advanced climbing technique being discussed here. It's all in how it is discussed. Take Moss for an example. There is no way I would muzzle Moss with all of his new tricks. What I want you to look for in Moss's postings is how clear he is in describing the details and drawbacks.

The video that was taken down was a typical YouTube piece that is entertaining to watch for sure, but there was little detail in explanations between the music riffs and the climber jumping around in the branches showing some mighty cool moves indeed. I know short movie clips need "punch and WOW" to get viewed and shared. But I rarely saw this kind of "hyped climbing behavior" in the real world of professional tree work, except possibly at the tree climbing competitions (TCC) where the climbers were ringing bells, not cutting wood. So my nerves were really rubbed raw when I saw the video piece.

I want to thank everyone here for pulling me out of my cave as far as posting here. I have been away from the forum boards for quite a while. It's good to be back talking to some really cool folks.

Treeman

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins
The following user(s) said Thank You: dogwood, bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136997 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
It's good to hear from you, Peter!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #137000 by yoyoman
Replied by yoyoman on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion

treeman wrote: ....It's all in how it is discussed. Take Moss for an example. There is no way I would muzzle Moss with all of his new tricks.

Treeman


Teeman I agree, there is no one quite as articulate and talented/experienced as Moss, he can stay impartial and sort out the pros and cons of concepts and explain it to the rest of us. Someone needs to figure out how to clone him so you can have moss and mossy1 and mossy2 etc. so the rest of us don't have to struggle for hours tying to get some thoughts out there.

See you soon Peter, I have to bring the tree boat back that Erika used on our redwood/dougfir.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago #137001 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Hu i wich i could also draw as good as he does.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #137003 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Hey Ugo,

Where does your name "Bradypus" come from? :unsure:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 2 months ago - 7 years 2 months ago #137004 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
It's latin name of the three-toed sloth. Tooked it because i'm a lazy climber... Plus i love tropical environments.

It takes me a lot of time to get ready, i climb slowly as i'm not athletic and when i'm up there i love hanging for hours. And i can be paranoid some time and surely look like a sloth : ok i'll put my rope here, hmm... ok... hmmm no wait... yes it's good. No, maybe not... ok let's do it ! Or not... A bit like slothes move.

It wouldn't have been correct at all to call myself a squirrel or spider monkey. :pinch:
Last edit: 7 years 2 months ago by bradypus.
The following user(s) said Thank You: dogwood

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.390 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum

Join Our Mailing List