Rope techniques acronyms and confusions

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136887 by bradypus
Rope techniques acronyms and confusions was created by bradypus
Hi tree lovers !

Edit : Starting this conversation i originaly wanted to understand and efficiently call each rope technique.

In France we use so many different names that i've started to use american ones like DdRT, DRT, SRT etc, that i founded more pragmatic. But i've found also that these acronyms were sometime confusing. For exemple DRT is used talking about DdRT. And some other techniques like the "dual friction hitches" we often use in France were not listed.

Thanks to participants on this thread and especially Treeman and Treebing i understand now a lot more what is going on. There are two ways to call things, one is more historical and the other quite new and based on deep technical analysis.


By the way the objective is absolutly not to tell that a system is better than an other, there's no such thing as a rope technique better than an other. There are several techniques adapted to several uses. We talk about rope techniques, to understand what we are talking about we describe them, but these are only descriptions about how they are set, not about how they can be safely used. Do not intend to try a technique you don't know because it sounds attractive.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by bradypus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136888 by Tree-D
Replied by Tree-D on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
I was going to let someone else--more knowledgeable than me--reply. But then you called yourself "psychorigid," and I said, "MY BROTHER!"

Well, let me do the one thing you probably did not want anyone to do, and that is... give you another term.
DREC: Double Rope End Climbing (or is it Doubled Rope End Climbing?)

My understanding (and this could be totally wrong):
DRT is a rock-climbing term for when a climber uses two ropes at once (Double Rope Technique).
DdRT is meant to represent Doubled Rope Technique, where one rope goes over an anchor, comes back down, ties to the climber, and then bridges over to the down rope (by itself, or with a split tail, or whatever). Our classic tree technique! At first, many tree climbers were perfectly happy calling this DRT. And, honestly, some climbers (including me, even though I am also psychorigid) are STILL perfectly comfortable calling this DRT. (I just can't be bothered to write that little "d" in my logbook. I know, now and forever, then when I write DRT in my tree climbing logbook, I mean Doubled Rope Technique. If I WERE to ever set up Doubled Rope Technique using two separate ropes, I would fill out one climbing log and two separate DRT rope-logs for that one climb.)
DREC: when I write this in my logbook (especially my rope log), it means I used both ends of one rope to set up two anchors. This happens if I'm just temporarily setting up a second anchor to use as a positioning lanyard, or if I'm actually changing anchors as I climb up/down/across in multiple pitches.
SRT is what I write for climbing static rope using ascenders and descenders.
NOTE: I HAVE climbed on both ends of my SRT rope, climbing up in multiple pitches. By the above DRT/DREC logic, you would think that I would have a term for that! (SREC?) Actually... now that I have written that down... that's not a bad idea. I think I will start logging my climbs in the following four ways:
DRT/DREC/SRT/SREC (Although I will concede that it would be slightly more correct to log the first as DdRT.)

Oh god! This response gave you TWO more terms! And one of them I just made up!
Sorry. I don't think that is what you wanted.

-Dennis
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136889 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
I don't really see the point of the dual friction hitches that the French climbers are using. To me it would seem to be a dangerous and pointless technique.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136891 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Thanks Dennis !
I feel a bit more confused héhéhé ^^' but i wasn't looking for a particular answer, i was looking for your answers and even if it gets more complex than i thought i'm really happy to learn more. Thanks a lot !


Beware ! What i'm saying there is not that the dual friction hitch technique is the way to go.
There are benefits and bad sides too. To be able to use this system you have to be trained to it by an instructor knowing well this technic.


Hi Dave,

Benefits are multiple :
- 1:1 system, you climb 1 foot and you get up from 1 foot like in SRT.
- Footlocking is a bit easyer.
- Higly mobile, as it is possible to link both ends of the rope with a carabiner and put this link at the anchor point. Then when you're at the top you can easily move your anchor point. Wich is not that mobile with an SRT.
- Highly versatile, you can easily and safely pass from this system to a DdRT, or 2 DdRT.
- Cheap, if you're used to DdRT you just need an other friction rope and a carabiner to have this system. Wich is way cheaper than move to an SRT setup.

In fact it's a way to mix advantages of SRT with advantages of DdRT.
It is not dangerous, at least not more than an SRT or a DdRT as long as you know what you're doing.

The only safety troubles we had with this was when using only one friction hitch for both ropes, it can generate uncontrollable descents. So this is now forbidden and solved using to distinct friction hitches.

To me the only bad aspect of it is that you can't use a rope walk system.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by bradypus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136897 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
I guess if you tie the rope into a loop or tie stoppers at each end it eliminates the risk I was thinking of. Also I guess this would be great if you love foot-locking.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by Davej.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago #136898 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Allways tie arrest knot 5 feet before the end of a rope (or both ends in this case), allways ;)

Have read here and there how allmost impossible it is to have a standardized vocabulary for tree climbing. So i guess i can continue naming this technic DRT...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136900 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
To me it looks more like a system for a professional tree worker rather than a recreational climber. The tree pros often use more complex schemes that are sort of a combination of Ddrt and SRT.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136903 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
It is mostly used by professionals for sure but i wouldn't say that it's a real combination of SRT. In a way it is, but not historicaly i guess. Because SRT is in fact so rare here that it may not have inspired this technic.

It can look a tricky method but it's not that much complex, it's really easy to learn and practice. And it's fun, really. So to me it has its place in recreationnal tree climbing. But it has to be properly teached.

I've just learned that some american climbers call it the frenchy, so i guess that it is really a local method. Wich to me is really strange because it is in my TC culture one of the 3 pillars of tree climbing. SRT DdRT and... hu... FRT ^^'
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by bradypus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136904 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
I've found an other conversation about acronyms such as SRT DdRT DRT etc.
A strong one, really interisting because based on strong principles used by really experienced climbers, involved in the SRT summit... no joke.


Basicaly...
SRT is climbing on one rope.
You make one cut on any part of the upper rope, you fall, that's Single Rope.
DRT is climbing on two ropes.
You make the same cut, you don't fall because you're still hanging on the second rope, that's Double Rope.

So DdRT is SRT, and absolutly not DRT.
Good. it answers the title of this topic, no confusion at all, DdRT is absolutly not DRT.

So how to make the difference between these to kind of SRT ?
The classic SRT is set with a non mobile rope, it is Static
DdRT is set on a mobile rope, it is Dynamic

DdRT (wich is bugging some pros because it makes a mess being confused with DRT) starts to be presented as SSRT/DSRT or SRT.s and SRT.d, exact notations seem to be unsure yet.

And it can get kind of messy too...
Belay is also a dynamic SRT so a DSRT or SRT.d or SRTD wathever, just like DdRT... How to make the différence ? Well in fact it doesn't matter because everybody knows what a belay is.

To come back to my double prusik system, when i climb i'm in SRTS, when i go down or walk on a branch i'm in SRTD and when put my third prusik to enjoy a skywalk i'm in DRTDD or DRTDS and i even can do a DRTSS. I can't stand to change the name of my system each time i make a move on it.


Finally i don't know how you'll call a DdRT next month/year/decade, i'll wait and see (keep me informed by the way i would be really glad to know) and i'll get back to our strange exotic names "auto moulinette" and co, cause it's quite easyer.

No offense, this SRT summit is an awsome work, people presenting this new acronism system are great pros, and great humans, i met some of them, so i know they are OK.
And i'm really happy to understand more the difference between SRT and DRT, but it looks like you too dear cousins you gonna have the hell of a job to figure out how to call a cat a cat.
:laugh:


Cheers !
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by bradypus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136959 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
It really is confusing. We develop a set of acronyms for different systems, then the systems change and there are more systems, hence, more acronyms.

The main thing to remember about DRT is this:
DRT is two separate lines,from two separate anchors, connected to two separate bridges on your saddle. You could have two SRT lines, two DdRT lines or one SRT line and one DdRT line.

It is NOT climbing on two legs of one line connected to one anchor.

Proponents of DRT will tell you that a DdRT rig is just one way to set up an SRT rig. Sure, the rope is looped over and moves over the TIP, as opposed to being anchored at the base or in the canopy, but it is still one piece of rope.

Maybe it would help if it was called TRT. :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136960 by patty
Replied by patty on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Hate to say it, Walter, but I'm really confused by and don't understand what you've said. Doubled rope technique: "Two separate lines"? No. "Two separate anchors"? No. "Connected to two bridges on the saddle?" No. (I REALLY didn't understand the "two bridges" part!!)

It's pretty simple, you guys, and nothing has changed except the variety of mechanical devices climbers use in place of a friction hitch, and the numerous kinds of friction hitches in use. Still, in DRT, both ends of the rope can be used in the climbing system, and the rope always moves over the anchor point. In SRT, only one end of the rope is used in the climbing system, and the rope does not move during the climbing process.

My and Peter's two cents.

patty
The following user(s) said Thank You: dogwood, bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136961 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Hey Patty,

This is not referring to Doubled rope technique. This is a different thing. Essentially, the climber is connected to two separate climbing systems simultaneously. Two separate ropes, two separate anchors, two separate ascent systems, and two separate bridges on the same saddle. Ask Kevin Bingham!
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by dogwood.
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136962 by yoyoman
Replied by yoyoman on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Hi guys, hate to jump in.
My understanding.

SRT (single rope technique): A single static line, it does not move.

DRT (double rope technique): 2 static lines, they both do not move.

DdRT (doubled rope technique) The rope is dynamic, it moves over the anchor creating a 2:1 mechanical advantage.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by yoyoman. Reason: just my opinion
The following user(s) said Thank You: bradypus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • bradypus
  • bradypus's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
More
7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #136969 by bradypus
Replied by bradypus on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion
Thanks Richard.

I used to understand it this way too. Both taking the popular way to call things, and taking it as a rope configuration. What i understand now is that these are two seperated ways to aboard it.

SRT can be a single static line as you said, attached to the base of a tree or in high.
But it can also be attached to the climber (DdRT) or to an other person staying on the ground (belay).

The difference between the two ways are that the first one is a popular naming, and the second one a technical approach wich is not that popular and complexifies a lot correct acronyms. Like SRT.s.b (SRT static base anchored), SRT.s.t (SRT static top anchored), SRT.d.c (SRT dynamic attached to the climber aka DdRT), SRT.d.b (SRT dynamic attached to a belayer), things like this.

In my opinion both will have to coexist because the first way is in our culture but doesn't explain really how things work, and the second because it explains everything but is quite hermetic to easy understanding.


By the way DRT can be dynamic. Take two ropes, set two DdRTs and you got a dynamic DRT. In a way even if it's made with only one rope it is still DRT.


Sorry to come back on it but i try to write an article about rope techniques and i would really apreciate to be contradicted if i'm wrong.
Last edit: 7 years 3 months ago by bradypus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 months ago #136971 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic DRT and DdRT the great confusion

yoyoman wrote: Hi guys, hate to jump in.
My understanding.

SRT (single rope technique): A single static line, it does not move.

DRT (double rope technique): 2 static lines, they both do not move.

DdRT (doubled rope technique) The rope is dynamic, it moves over the anchor creating a 2:1 mechanical advantage.

Connect and ascend/descend however and with whatever a climber likes but it is this rope configuration that makes the definition. All of these can be from one piece of rope.

Hey Rich,

That would make practical sense, but I believe the Bing himself has said that DdRT is SRT. :S

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.259 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum

Join Our Mailing List