Vertical Devices -- Website

Interesting website...

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

He's a bit cranky about the Pantin and other devices. Excellent info but bear in mind he's not a tree climber so he's potentially clueless when reviewing some knots and devices for tree climbing use.
-moss

As moss says, you have to take what Storrick says with a grain of salt, because he is not a tree climber (as he puts it \"I don't play Tarzan of the jungle\"). That said, there is indeed a great deal of very useful info on there provided you remember the differences between caving/rock climbing and tree climbing. (Hmmm, maybe that latter point deserves a thread of its own...)

I happen to agree with his assessment of the Pantin, but that's partly because I almost never climb in boots, and partly because I'm on the heavy side. As usual, your mileage will vary.

I don't agree with his assessment of friction knot backups of rappel devices - he's the most widely cited ref on the web for people who argue against these. I use a friction knot BELOW my rack routinely, and I think that's a very useful option for tree climbers.

I do like reading his assessments of mechanical quality and the behavior of the devices on rope. Very helpful.

The current version of the Pantin stays on your foot I think Storrick had an early version, he suffers on the bleeding edge. You don't need boots to use it but it helps to have an ankle high shoe, I guess that's a boot but even a high sneaker would work.

The part he mentions about coming off the rope with every step, I have no idea what he was doing to cause that. It stays on the rope when you want it to and comes off easily hands-free when you want it to (a virtue). When it is loaded on the rope it does not come off. There's a little skill to be developed (not much) to learn how to use it smoothly. Mark, you might like it more if you try it for branch asscents (as opposed to trunk ascents), put your left foot in a single footlock on the tail below the Pantin, right foot has the Pantin, makes a nifty psuedo rope walker for DRT (footlocking the tail) or SRT. It allows you to stand on both feet side-by-side which is very nice for all weight classes (flyweight to substantial). Tom D. photographed me climbing this way in the zipline tree on the last day of the 'Vous climb, maybe a photo will show up.
-moss

Yeah, I should probably fiddle around with it again. I could keep it on the rope better than Storrick reports, but even on boots it seems to ride up - probably need to modify the straps or the buckle on the main strap. I guess I gave up on it after I learned single footlocking; that's available on either foot, works well in any foot gear except sandals (although my nine year old son used to footlock in sandals, and I've footlocked successfully in Sorel boots), and seems to do about the same thing as a Pantin.

Yep, I call the single footlock the \"Poor Man's Pantin\". It's the best foot ascender since sliced bread (what?), costs nothing and works great. The Pantin is just the mechanical version with some minor advantages for my climbing style. I tweaked the strap adjustments on my Pantin so it stays tight on my foot (doesn't ride up my ankle). It's another piece of gear that needs a few climbs to get it squared away. Being able to use the single foot lock with my left foot with the Pantin is a huge advantage for me. Unfortunately you can't do the same with a single footlock on each foot, I tried it.
-moss

In the TCI video, Peter clips a small biner into the hole(s) on his Pantin to keep it from coming off of the rope. The older Petzl handled ascenders didn't have the thumb lever so, for safety, you needed to do the same thing with them.

It's mentioned above in this thread that some folks have encountered the problem of the Pantin heel strap riding up over the top of shorter approach/hiking boots. I've climbed with my new Left-footed Pantin and have encountered that problem myself with the boots pictured.

Well, this is my solution to the problem of the Pantin heel strap riding up over the cuff of hiking boots.

It can be seen that I chose 1\" flat lightweight zebra-striped polyester webbing. In this picture, I'm up 48' on a climb where the strap had slipped previously. Note: It would be perhaps more appropriate to use 3/4\" or 1/2\" flat webbing so that it would fit inside the stirrup tube of the Pantin. Anyway, it works. The strap is about 3' long, but could be made shorter, even one-sized. Currently, it is adjustable. On one end, I stitched a 1 1/4\" flat loop. The Pantin heel strap is routed through this (one-time setup). From there is wraps around the instep back up to the center of the boot heel, through the flat loop and around the Pantin heel strap, then reverse follow through, somewhat like a ring knot back down the the junction of the heel strap and the strap holding the doubleback buckle. Wrap clockwise to turn forward. Cinch the doubleback buckle. Route the slack through the boot's shoelaces forward and then back to the strap junction to keep it neat. It's easier to do than the write about. Try it, you'll like it!

I was looking at where you install the stra along the back part of the boot and I usually install it lower at the heel of the boot almost touching the sole of the boot and in general Do not have the problem you are describing.

See example below

Thanks, OT. I'm hearing the experts say to rig the Pantin lower. I'm a new Pantin user, so, I will try to re-rig the Pantin lower on the side of my boot as you show it. I raised the Pantin to stabilize my ankle. That it does well, but at the price of the heel strap slipping over the boot heel. Thus, the heel strap hold-down was added. I don't consider that it adds much weight nor complexity, so if the \"low-rider\" version of Pantin install doesn't work for me, at least I have another option.

The heel strap will not stay in that low position (in OT's photo) over the course of a climb, the strap under the foot regulates the height of the Pantin on the side of the foot and subsequently the strap on the heel. The best position for the heel strap is just above the back of your heel, it will help to stabilize your ankle in that position.

Trebuchet's sling solution is excellent, I'm curious to see if it would work on a totally low-rise shoe.
-moss

I tried my own version of Trebuchet's idea, using some thin accessory cord. I simply fed it through 2-3 of the laces on the outside of the shoe, tied the two ends of the cord together using a Blake's hitch, forming an adjustable loop. I could then shorten the loop as required and slip it over the Pantin unit on the inside of my ankle. I could then tension the loop using the Blake's hitch, which was positioned on the outside of my foot, near the laces.



This will work on low cut shoes if the loop is kept short enough as the Pantin cannot change position when the loop of cord doesn't change. The only drawback is that, with the loop pulling on the laces on the outside of the foot, it tries to turn your ankle over when you stand up on it. Whether this outweighs the advantages of not having the Pantin riding up and digging into your ankle probably depends on your boots.

Michael[/color]

michaeljspraggon wrote:

....The only drawback is that, with the loop pulling on the laces on the outside of the foot, it tries to turn your ankle over when you stand up on it. Whether this outweighs the advantages of not having the Pantin riding up and digging into your ankle probably depends on your boots.

To add to that, the shoe or boot needs to be sturdy enough so that the Pantin can be cinched tight enough on your foot to be functional, it shouldn't have any slop. If the shoe is not sturdy enough (a light hiker/low-rise shoe), your foot will feel like its being compressed when the Pantin is adjusted as tight enough to be functional.

In other words, the Pantin is designed to be used on a sturdy boot (medium weight hiking boot is sufficient) that covers the ankle.
-moss

In other words, the Pantin is designed to be used on a sturdy boot (medium weight hiking boot is sufficient) that covers the ankle. -moss

Amen to that, moss!

Remember, too, that RTC involves more time suspended and walking, sitting, and standing. During the walking and standing portions of your climb, I think that a sturdy boot can be more predictably controlled where it contacts the tree surface probably helping to reduce damage to the cambium. I believe this is the case because with sturdy shoes one tends to balance on the shoe(s), rather than aggressively gripping the surface as in a rock climbing toe/heel hold.

At least for my personal climbing style, I won't try to operate without sturdy shoes during RTC, especially when using a Pantin.

moss,
You never bare-foot climb wearing the Pantin, do you?

Trebuchet wrote:

...You never bare-foot climb wearing the Pantin, do you?

At Simpsonwood I ascended to my tree boat every night barefoot using a Yoyo (RADS) SRT rig. Who wants to sleep in their shoes? Bare feet works for me night climbing, sensitive foot touch on the tree helps when you can't see.
-moss