new biner

here is a (catalog pic) of my new Petzl KADOR steel OSHA/ANSI rated autolock biner.

That looks like a great biner. Have you had a chance to try it in a tree yet?

yup, bagged 3 tree climbs since yesterday. Love the biner. Bombproof. & and i dont find the weight an issue. (i'm used to carrying a 25lb chainsaw into the tree at work), an extra ounce or of steel does'nt faze me.

Aha, just read your "Lil Coyote and me + tree = 3" post. Sounds like it was a great climb, coyotes and all. The coyotes are almost as big as Rottweilers around here, and lots of them. 40 kN is a lot of strength! Are you planning on hauling a Land Rover up on your next climb, lol? So far I'm happy with the AM'D Ball Lock biners I'm using, but of course always looking for the next, must-have, piece of gear.

ah, i'm just not a fan of aluminum biners. I have ZERO confidence in them and when im 50 feet up thats all thats going thru my mind, distracting me. I'm sure they are just fine, but not for me.

Those big ol' biners are also approved by the American Dental Assocaition. Make sure you smile when you lob it over the next branch. That way you spare the lip and employ drillers.

Steel scares me for that reason. Once you throw it you're into the "watch out!" zone if it ricochets unexpectedly. Plastic mouth guard in order? Aluminun biner wrapped in a small monkey fist flies just fine. You can blanket the steel biner in a few wraps of rope to give it a soft cover for throwing.

I totally respect the idea that if you don't have confidence at height with a piece of gear you shouldn't use it. Doesn't matter what anyone says or what the strength rating is. After you're finished being logical about climbing technique and gear you have to respect what your body tells you.
-moss

lemme count the number of times i abuse my biner by throwing it....... 0

nuff said.

I have an aluminum triple-action autolock biner on the end of my adjustable lanyard. I frequently throw it over branches. In two years I've seen no degradation of the biner beyond slight wear of the anodized (or painted?) surface of the gate sleeve . The autolock works smoothly and the biner has no chips or cracks. This is not wacking the biner against rock, steel or concrete. The speed of the biner is relatively slow during the throw. Moderation in biner use is the key. Always inspect biners before the climb.
-moss

I might be inclined to understand SRT-Tech’s feelings on steel biners.
By law I am only allowed to use steel biners “on-the-job”.

When I first started doing recreational climbing, I was intrigued by all the alloy gadgets that were employed. I was a bit taken back by using an aluminum biner for direct life support. Then I eventually began to trust them.

I was trained on, and have always relied on steel so it took a while to get confident while hanging on light duty alloy hardware. I know that rock climbers hang off tiny alloy trinkets all day long but for fall restraint & life support in an industrial environment we, in the trade, are still being raised on steel.

I trust my aluminum REC climbing gear with my life but at work they always assign steel biners with our fall restraint and emergency recovery gear packs and we can NOT substitute anything, (quite understandable).

Industrial climbing, Tree climbing, and Rock climbing. Different set-ups for different applications. I guess it all depends on where you were first trained to work at height.

And yes, given the choice, I would rather get tapped in the teeth with an alloy biner than steel. Steel hurts! And they get heavy when carried in large numbers too.

My 2 cents worth applied
Electrojake

^ great post!

yes, i was raised "on rope" in a industrial (confined space entry rescue, tower climbing, other ) setting. Steel autolocks were the standard issue. Only thing we were allowed to use aluminum biners for was as gear hooks on the harness, or a locking alloy biner for raising or lowering of gear bags.

I know i sound sometimes like i harp on aluminum biners a lot, but one NEVER forgets the sound of an aluminum gate pin pinging and then a creaking noise as the biner itself elongates.

while i know a lot of you throw your biners while inthe tree, i do not throw my biners. Again, refering to my background, you throw a biner, bye bye, dont come back to the site. Drop a biner? it gets destroyed the next minute with a angle grinder no ifs ands or buts or using it for gear hanging. That was written policy and procedure in various "on rope" jobs i have had. It gets instilled in you over and over and over again. Thats why i cringe when i see treeclimbers orr groundies or rec climbers using their gear......hell, i have seen cavers ropes that were in better shape after being pulled thru mud and sharp rocks, than some of the ropes and biners used by treeclimbers (pro/rec).

hence my love of cold hard steel. I like the duability, i like the fact it does'nt get all scratched up like aluminum biners do (easier to inspect), and well i just plain like the bomber construction.


i have tried going ultralight with my gear, did it for a while, had 1oz mini alloy autolockers, short lengths of rope, lighter harness, but i just could'nt trust the gear, and it created a psychological barrier while i climbed. I could'nt enjkoy the trees. Soon as i switched back to bomber steel gear, i the gear disapeeared while i climbed, and i could enjoy the treeclimb 100% without that psychological barrier...

and for the record, carabiners, be they constructed form steel or aluminum, were NOT designed to be thrown, used as throwballs, throwbags or whatever else some users decide to use them for. Thats what lead filled throwbags are designed for. Carabiners were designed for ONE purpose ONLY - to CONNECT the user's harness to the rope, or to connect ropes to anchors, or to clip into fixed protection (ie rockclimbing fixed placements etc). Carabiners were not designed to be thrown, used in place of throwbags etc etc etc. EVERY carabiner manufacture will state this.

From a legal standpoint, the end user will NOT have any legal grounds to stand on should any of their biners fail after being MISUSED (and YES, it is MISUSE) in this fashion.

food for thought...since many of you want to develop STANDARDS for treeclimbing. Hows about leaving the carabiner to its INTENDED use (as a connector) and using throwbags to achieve rope placement instead...

Guilty as charged!

I frequently toss the free end of my Grillon with a nice fat Petzl William Tri-Act carabiner attached to the end of it in order to advance to nearby tie in points. It’s much easier than stopping to do the throw-bag thing.

Occasionally on a bad toss the biner will hit a branch and fly back at me. Not good for the tree & not good for my teeth.

Taking the time to use a throw bag instead would probably be the better method but tossing the biner is so much simpler, its hard to resist!

I own only one steel carabiner, an “Omega Steel Twistlock D.” It is installed on the “free end” of my lanyard. I bought it a few years ago from New Tribe, with the specific thought that its weight might better enable me to flip the lanyard around a large tree trunk, or help pull the lanyard back down after I have thrown it over a limb above.

I am now deeply concerned to learn the legal opinion and technical fact that it is so fragile that such usage has precluded any chance of my winning a lawsuit against Omega, should the carabiner’s 53 kN rated strength not support me.

Rats.

Perhaps someone should immediately notify New Tribe to modify their product description, which says, “Heavy enough to be a good throwing carabiner . . . .” If they leave that wording there, perhaps a suit against them will stick.

Biners are not designed to be used as a throw weight!! they are CONNECTORS in a rope system, nothing more, nothing less.

I have no idea what NewTribe claims in their ads. But if they are openly posting that a carabiner can be thrown, i'd be worried.........

ask each and every manufacturer of carabiners what they think about using a biner for OTHER than its intended purpose, and see what they say....... a resounding NO!

and this is something that i CONTINUALLY see in treeclimbing, be it Rec or Pro.....gear that is used wrong, abused or used for something OTHER than its INTENDED purpose.

Treeclimbing is NO different than any other rope access area. Simply put, ropes (just like other rope access fields) are used to access an area of the tree. (just another medium, like rock, steel, tower etc)
WHY THEN, do treeclimbers insist on abusing their gear, not caring for their ropes, climbing on dirty ropes, storing their ropes wet, using carabiners for uses other than the intended use etc etc etc etc?????????? Why do treeclimbers not follow BASIC rules and procedures for gear care and use? its YOUR life, why jeapordize it by not maintaining your gear, by abusing your gear, and by not caring for your gear?

about a dozen or so Rope Access techs i used to work with, have been following this forum and other forums related to treeclimbing, and have commented on the apparent lack of basic knowledge in rope skills,namely the use and care of gear or the basic understanding of what you do or don't do with your gear.

i'm not singling out anyone here or any forum in particular, but there is a real need for treeclimbers (any/all) to come up to par with the rest of the rope access world, in terms of basic do's / don'ts related to our gear.

There is pushing the boundaries in terms of new techniques or gear, then there is abuse of your LIFE SUPPORT gear. Choose one.



anyways, my original post at the top of the page was siomply to show off my new biner. There it is. Dont like it, dont use it, i dont care.



for the record i will OPENLY admit to having used gear for other than its intended purpose. But I did so in controlled environment with a belayed backup, and i sure as hell did'nt abuse the gear by trhowing it, etc. so yea, i'm guilty, let the slagfest begin