Naming climbing systems

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12 years 6 months ago #133469 by Davej
Naming climbing systems was created by Davej
I've been calling the handled ascender footloop and Pantin scheme the \"frog\" system per page 40 of the 2008 Sherrill catalog. Now I start reading the Cavediggers.com chapter 7 pdf file and it says this should more accurately be called the \"floating cam - frog\" system since the original \"frog\" has only one footloop and no Pantin. This seems squirrelly to me since there was already the \"ropewalker\" system that is closer to being identical than the \"frog\" is. Shouldn't the basic geometry define the system name and not the brand and model of the ascender? Compare the Mitchell system with the Jumar system - one uses a chest harness with a carabiner while the other uses a chest harness with a roller. What if I use a carabiner with a built in roller? Do I need a new system name? It all seems a little crazy to me.

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12 years 6 months ago #133470 by Oak
Replied by Oak on topic Re:Naming climbing systems
Don't stress out too much about vocabulary, it'll never get standardized.

And here I call it a Frogwalker - the Frog(sans walker) is the croll and the upper ascender (no foot ascender). This is the same term used by many cavers and rock climbers. Go figure. Just make sure who ever you are talking to knows what the heck you're talking about.
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12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #133474 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Naming climbing systems
Well, what about a generic-universal naming scheme? Maybe just hand-hand-torso-foot-foot? So the Frogwalker could be H-B-A-L-A or HB-A-LA system for [H]andled_ascender - {B]are_hand - [A]scender_for_torso - [L]oop_for_foot - [A]scender_for foot?
Last edit: 12 years 6 months ago by Davej.

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12 years 6 months ago #133475 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Naming climbing systems
Tree climbers generally call it a \"Tree Frog\" to distinguish from the caving \"Frog\" system. Caving, rock climbing and tree climbing are never going to agree on terms except the most generic ones like \"carabiner\" and \"rope\". After that each discipline needs its own specific vocabulary, same words will have different use and meanings.

I grew up playing hockey. The most important shout call, usually from a coach or maybe a player on your team was \"heads up!\" This would be to try and save your butt when a large defenseman was about to crush you against the boards. It's so deeply ingrained in me that I still have trouble shouting \"Headache!\" When something is falling out of a tree, I usually shout \"Heads up\" which is the wrong thing to do when something is falling on your head. The point being that each tree climber brings some other legacy to their tree climbing practice, as a result the language is going to be all over the place and never completely resolved.

I personally have zero interest creating a high angle terminology Tower of Babel, there's not enough time to work on it and there's not much chance any of it will actually be adopted in real-world use. Look what happened to Esperanto!
-moss

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12 years 6 months ago #133476 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Naming climbing systems

moss wrote: Tree climbers generally call it a \"Tree Frog\" to distinguish from the caving \"Frog\" system. Caving, rock climbing and tree climbing are never going to agree on terms except the most generic ones like \"carabiner\" and \"rope\". After that each discipline needs its own specific vocabulary

Ok, but who defines what \"tree frog\" means? The Sherrill catalog? The ongoing confused conversations of tree workers? I'd guess the book \"On Rope\" is written for rock climbers.

I grew up playing hockey...I still have trouble shouting \"Headache!\" When something is falling out of a tree

Yes I agree, it doesn't sound quite natural to me either.

I personally have zero interest creating a high angle terminology Tower of Babel

Ok, but then where does our vocabulary get written down? I don't like the idea of intentionally diverging from established rock and alpine climbing terms -- because that is what you'll find in the climbing books.

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12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #133477 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Naming climbing systems
Davej wrote:

Ok, but then where does our vocabulary get written down? I don't like the idea of intentionally diverging from established rock and alpine climbing terms -- because that is what you'll find in the climbing books.


Language is an evolutionary process, I don't think anyone is intentionally diverging from rock or alpine terms. Tree climbers come up with terms in a variety of ways:
1. They learned terms from someone who taught them how to climb
2. They modified terms from other high angle disciplines
3. They invented their own terms

Think of it like surfing, I don't think surfers ever sat around and had meetings about standardizing vocabulary. After many years of surfer activity trends emerged in terminology. East coast U.S. surfers probably have some different terms than west coast surfers, fair enough, different conditions and cultures. If enough solid usage patterns exist it's possible for someone to write it down. It's not top down, the language evolves first. Recreational tree climbing terminology is in the middle of its own rich evolutionary process.
-moss
Last edit: 12 years 6 months ago by moss.

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12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #133478 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Naming climbing systems
Davej wrote:

Ok, but who defines what \"tree frog\" means? The Sherrill catalog? The ongoing confused conversations of tree workers?


The most widely used term over time wins out, has nothing to do with Sherrill or logic.

I call it Tree Frog because every experienced tree climber that I know who uses that system calls it a Tree Frog.
-moss
Last edit: 12 years 6 months ago by moss.

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12 years 6 months ago #133479 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Naming climbing systems

moss wrote:
I call it Tree Frog because every experienced tree climber that I know who uses that system calls it a Tree Frog.


Ok. So I'll have to wait for Peter's next DVD.

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12 years 6 months ago #133480 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Naming climbing systems
Davej wrote:

moss wrote:
I call it Tree Frog because every experienced tree climber that I know who uses that system calls it a Tree Frog.


Ok. So I'll have to wait for Peter's next DVD.


?? Not sure what you're referring to, is Peter plannin on releasing a terminology piece on a DVD?
-moss

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12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #133484 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Naming climbing systems

moss wrote:
?? Not sure what you're referring to, is Peter plannin on releasing a terminology piece on a DVD?


Oh no, but Peter should seriously consider a second one containing intermediate level climbing techniques. I think the first DVD only covers the traditional system.
Last edit: 12 years 6 months ago by Davej.

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