Trad Knots & Peter's DVD

I recently came across a Youtube video which described an ANSI requirement for using only cinching knots on carabiners to help prevent side loading. It does make sense so I guess Peter might want to revise his DVD at some point, although I guess you could argue that a fig-8-on-a-bight is more certain to be tied correctly by a novice.

Post a link to the video. That way we can all see it and make appropriate recommendations for or against.

Thanks,
Baker

says....

ANSI Z133.1 - 2006 8.1.3 "When using a carabiner without a captive eye, the knot or eye splice shall cinch in place to prevent accidental opening and/or side loading of the carabiner."

Don't get to antsy about ANSI
Cross loading is only ever an issue in a fall - rescue workers and climbers have known this forever. If you are climbing correctly, there should never be an instance when you would shock load any of your equipment. Keep your tethers taut and your climbing line weighted an you won't have any problems.

ANSI oversees literally EVERYTHING. From the manufacturing of acoustic ceiling tiles to the way to milk a cow. How can an organization who dabbles in sooooo many things be expert in any ONE in particular?

I'll put my trust in a lifelong expert like Peter (or any other arborist for that matter) any day, over a suggestion from a group that seems to have a hand in every activity and process on the planet.

From their website:

The Institute oversees the creation, promulgation and use of thousands of norms and guidelines that directly impact businesses in nearly every sector: from acoustical devices to construction equipment, from dairy and livestock production to energy distribution, and many more.

"Many more", they say. ANSI is a, and I use the term lightly, Non-Profit organization that "regulates businesses" so that "businesses" have a common ground. First of all, regulation is a word that get my shorts in a bunch. Secondly, most of us climb for fun, not business. This sport, as well as most other outdoor sports, is ever-changing. Techniques and styles are as varied as the people who practice them. Are we to check w/ ANSI every time someone ties a new knot or thinks "I wonder if I could do this a simpler, more effective way?" I think KNOT.

Baker wrote:

I'll put my trust in a lifelong expert like Peter (or any other arborist for that matter) any day, over a suggestion from a group that seems to have a hand in every activity and process on the planet.

Yeah, but it does seem like a reasonable idea on the surface. Nobody wants to fool with rotating carabiners. One curious aspect of this is that the TRAD connection is midline -- not end of line -- so a cinching hitch may or may not remain tight anyway. You need a hitch that will tighten if either rope is pulled, like maybe a cow's hitch or something similar.

I use a clove hitch when using a 4/2 blake's without a split tail. The anchor hitch work greats for end of line tie-in when using a split tail and a 4/2 blakes's. Both work great, and will untie without too much effort.

Much easier to untie than a loaded fisherman's which is also a great cinch knot.

The system Peter recommends has many virtues. For instance if you're facilitating a climb an F8 on a Bight/Blake's combo can be pre-tied before the climb, the facilitator can easily put climbers on and off rope without re-tying knots. If the facilitator wants to do a direct tie-in to the climber's harness delta, no problem, or if they want to use a carabiner to connect the F8 bight to the harness delta, no problem. Very flexible system.

I climbed Peter's system for about 3 years, never had an issue with the gate being crossed over many climbs. While facilitating hundreds of climbers in the last few years I've never had a climber cross the gate with the F8 bight.

Work climbing is a different scenario, while performing tree work climbers have to take on a "get it done" mentality and do things in trees that are potentially sketchy from a rec climbing point of view, ie: awkward positions, blending free climbing moves with rope climbing, there are many more opportunities to slack the rope, a cinching termination knot makes sense.

When creating an F8 on a Bight as a harness connection it's a good idea to create a small eye which further reduces the possibility of crossing the gate.
-moss

The figure 8 on a bight sure consumes a lot of rope, something to consider.....

Most rock climbers I know use the figure 8 more than tree climbers.