Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?

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6 years 6 months ago #137337 by rob2312
I have been using the cloth 10,12 and 14 ounce throw bags. If I miss I usually untie the end and restart. But recently my throw bags fail to come down at all. And right now I have a three day rescue planned for 70 foot up, Mainly because I don't have the time and figuring the best way. It is truly a rescue mission, but I think it makes me better at climber, either way I will get the bag back. My question is this: Which bags are better for not getting hung up? Leather, cloth, steel shot, buck shot, feathers... It is almost like they are made to squeeze into that leaf or crotch.

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6 years 5 months ago #137354 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
Look for throwbags with smaller rings, that's usually what hangs up first. Not getting throwbags stuck comes down to experience. You have have to hang up some bags to learn how not to. The most experienced climbers still get a bag stuck once in a awhile, goes with the territory.
-AJ
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6 years 5 months ago #137357 by rob2312
Replied by rob2312 on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
Just got in Richard Mumfords magthrow bag. Have not used yet but will seem interesting to use since the magnets can help you get the throwbag (steel shot) back.

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6 years 4 months ago #137379 by Tree Spider
Replied by Tree Spider on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
I have minimal experience with throw bags so far. The one I have is almost an entire 16 ounces. I know the approximate weight because I have a 16 oz lead sphere fishing weight I compared it to. I put a large bolt and some nuts together, covered them with a little foam, stitched em up tight in some towing strap, glued over the stitches. Works great, for low stuff. Definitely pulls the line back to ya ! One type of throw line I'm experimenting with is weed whacker line. A large spool of, I think 100 - 200 feet, was $6 - 8. Slick stuff ! It doesn't seem to tangle as easy as fishing line either !

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6 years 4 months ago #137380 by rob2312
Replied by rob2312 on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
I have plenty of weed eating line, just wondering how to tie a knot in that stuff. Have not tried but it is slick. In the Working climbing dvd he says in the old days they would use anything for a weight Crescent Wrench, boots, ect. Also as a side note: I have learned that setting your next tie in point from your existing tie in point (lanyard in first) is better than using the end of your climbing line. For me it works. What if the end of climbing line gets stuck? Using a forward motion atleast gives you better safety options.

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6 years 4 months ago #137382 by Tree Spider
Replied by Tree Spider on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
I haven't really tried to many different knots in the weed whacker line, cause I'm pretty confident the slickness will prohibit much grip that some knots rely heavily on. I have pretty much just used an overhand knot, or figure eight on a bight. I don't tie it over and over, with each use, I just tie it once, and tape or glue it, to keep it locked in a knot. I make it a big enough loop that it can be slipped over the entire weight, to girth hitch it.
When throwing it, it can feel difficult to grip it well, while giving it a good swing into a toss motion, so I kinda grip it by looping it over one finger and under another. Not like a coiled loop, ( as this may cause a kink type of interference ) but rather weaving, then pinching it against my fore finger with my thumb. Make sure when releasing to splay your fingers real wide to let it slip off.

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6 years 4 months ago #137383 by Tree-D
Replied by Tree-D on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
My posts are not widely loved, I know... but I have to jump in when I am worried about a future climbing buddy. And even if you and I never climb together, I am worried about you encouraging others into dangerous behavior.

Let's say you lanyard in... break down your primary... and start to advance it. In the middle of that operation, you realize you have disrupted a hive of bees or a nest of ants or lightning strikes or any of about 100 things that would qualify as urgent. Or you accidentally drop all of your rope? (Don't tell me that could never happen. Climbers who have a lot more experience than you have done it. Ask around.) You would be totally hosed now, my brother. The only time there is ever an excuse for a climber (especially a recreational climber) to be on an anchor that can't reach the ground is when they have climbed up in multiple pitches and are up so high that their rope can't reach the ground in one pitch. I'm guessing that's pretty rare for most/all of us? And when you are in that situation, you should be very careful and on high alert.

So, my answer is no. Climbers should absolutely never do what Rob just suggested. Using the other end of your rope to set up an Anchor B is many orders of magnitude safer than lanyarding in and advancing your primary anchor. I would really like you to be safe, Rob, but at the very least, please do not encourage other climbers in dangerous behavior.

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6 years 4 months ago #137384 by rob2312
Replied by rob2312 on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
Do not feel promoting dangerous behavior. Your same scenario with advancing your end line and angry hornets come at you. Opps, your end line got stuck above you, now you have no way to get down. Dropping the rope the way I suggested does not happen because I leave it attached to prusick and hitch climber, only the working end moves up. And if I get stuck I can girth hitch mid-tree (webbing strap) for an anchor point plus alpine butterfly, mid-line attach to my rope to come down. Last week I went up a tulip popular about 70 feet, the longest rope I have is 150 feet. Another 10 feet up double rope I would have to down climb like you mentioned. Everyone has different opinions on the safest way. Ask 20 people, get 20 different responses. I do what works for me and share what I learn.

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6 years 4 months ago #137385 by Tree-D
Replied by Tree-D on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
I'm a bigger pessimist than you are.
I have a better imagination for what can go wrong, and I have either heard more climbing-gone-wrong stories than you have, or when I heard those stories, I listened better.
You won't find 20 experienced climbers who agree with you on this one. Sorry.

My posts make you bristle, although I'm not sure why. I always include concern for you.
Your posts make me nervous... for you, as well as for people without climbing experience who may listen to you.

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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #137386 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
Rob--

You are a fairly new climber, and Sam is, too (his post two weeks ago: "I'm relatively new to harnessed and geared climbing"). Given the questions he's asking, he will not understand the nuances of your advice, nor which situations to use it in. I'm also concerned that you are not experienced enough to gauge the impact of what you're sharing with other climbers. In spite of your confidence, your advice could lead an inexperienced climber to try something he is not prepared to try.

We do not want to dampen your enthusiasm for climbing and sharing what you're learning. However, we do request that when you are responding to a new climber, you keep your solutions to the basics in order that they can 1) understand what you're talking about, and 2) remain safe while they gain climbing experience.

Thank you.

Treeman

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins
Last edit: 6 years 4 months ago by treeman.
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6 years 4 months ago #137387 by rob2312
Replied by rob2312 on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
Even though I am a new climber, every advice I have given is from experience of doing what I mention at least enough times when I know it works for me. If a person needs more advice, then ask. I cannot tell the climbers all the nuisances or road-blocks. Every method has that. I am just sharing what works for me, nothing else. I am not a person that runs away from conflict, at least it gives people the option for choosing for themselves. "Low and Slow". But you are right about people not understanding, I will take pics or upload a video for easier understanding. I use your methods to a certain degree. I still do the "Back" check on every tie-in. But this is a forum for discussions or ideas for what works for some people. People have to learn to think for themselves.

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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #137389 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
Rob,

Your attitude is unacceptable. Our Forums is not a place for you to take new climbers' lives in your hands by posting whatever you feel like posting because it "works for you". Our Forums are not a free-for-all. That's what YouTube is for.

New climbers don't know what is safe and what isn't not because "they need to learn how to think," but because they don't have enough experience to know the risks or dangers in some of the techniques they might want to try. That's why TCI has always insisted that new climbers learn the tried-and-true fundamentals of safe climbing and get some experience before they take on more advanced techniques. We rely on our most senior climbers and instructors to teach them, not someone with 6 months' climbing under his belt.

We made a reasonable request of you that you declined. You are now banned from our Forums.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins
Last edit: 6 years 4 months ago by treeman.

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6 years 4 months ago #137390 by Tree-D
Replied by Tree-D on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?

Sam newb wrote: ...weed whacker line... It doesn't seem to tangle as easy as fishing line either !


Hey there Sam.

Let's see if you have left any questions unanswered here.

If you have tried to use fishing line while throwing by hand, then yes, I bet tangling has been a problem. Fishing line/reels are pretty common for very high anchor-setting tools (100 feet or more), like the BigShot or crossbows. Berkeley Fireline (a hybrid between braided fishing line and monofilament) seems to be preferred over monofilament, probably because it won't break immediately if it gets a tiny nick? Once "shooters" get the fishing line in place, they use the fishing line to pull throwline into the tree (ideally brightly-colored, so they can inspect the path, which can be hard to do with fishing line even with binoculars), then they use the throwline to haul up their climbing rope.

I am trying to imagine how weed whacker line would behave as it unspools during a throw. It certainly sounds cheap, although the best throwline for hand throws is a line which does not have a lot of spooling-memory, but does have some. Lines which are extremely relaxed tend to tangle more than you might think. I would imagine weed whacker line has extreme spooling memory, which might be annoying in the other direction. But, hey, the consequences from the ground are very low. If you fail to set a line in the tree, at least your feet are still on the ground.

Personally, I use sewn throwbag shot-pouches and braided plastic throwline. While it's true that climbers used to use anything that was handy, the modern sewn throwbags absorb impact when they hit a branch, which helps them fall straight down instead of bouncing around unpredictably in the canopy. You are doing a reasonable job of simulating this with nuts surrounded by a little foam and sewn into webbing. I like a weight that is just heavy enough to reliably bring my line back to me, and not much heavier. If I am going to re-throw over and over, I try to save my strength. The "ideal" weight depends on how rough the bark is, and how slick your throwline is.

Finally, and this is the most important thing I have to say on the matter... make sure to wear your helmet while throwing weights around. Also make sure that anyone near you is wearing a helmet, and say, "Throwing" before you give that final heave and let it go so that other climbers (or innocent bystanders who may have walked up unnoticed) know that something heavy is about to go flying, or can ask you to wait a second while they get out of the way.

Actually... I spoke too soon... the most important thing I have to say about climbing is that if you look up at the top menu of this page, you'll see an "Education" drop-down menu. There are many excellent instructors all over the country and the world. And while nothing beats in-person education, TCI even offers an online class which is a fraction of the price of a full set of climbing gear, and a tiny fraction of the price and hassle of a trip to the emergency room.

Sincerely,
-Dennis

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6 years 4 months ago #137391 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
To anyone who has gotten to this point in this discussion, we want to be very clear.

New climbers generally are unable -- by virtue of their inexperience, not their "ability to think" -- to evaluate climbing advice fully. The consequences for teaching new climbers advanced techniques to try out before they are ready can be fatal.

When we make a request of a Forums poster that he respect our limits, we have very good reasons for doing so, reasons that even he may not yet be aware of. When that person not only declines, but also tells us he is going to illustrate his advice, he leaves us with no other choice but to ban him. We do not take banning someone lightly, and we do it reluctantly.

In our 32 years of teaching and putting others on rope, TCI has never seen a recreational tree climbing accident among people who climb, facilitate, or teach according to TCI's overwhelmingly accepted standards and methods, anywhere in the world. We will not allow our Forums to be the place where somebody learns something that kills him.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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6 years 4 months ago #137392 by Tree Spider
Replied by Tree Spider on topic Best throw bag less likely to get stuck?
Thanks for squabbling over my safety, everyone ! :woohoo: I certainly am not intending to pick a fight here, or add to one, but a few things seemed a little off.

TreeD...not sure I was the one with questions regarding the throw line issue, but thanks for sharing. That braided plastic stuff you mentioned could indeed be better than the weed whacker stuff...I may look into it. Coiling / winding memory doesn't seem to be an issue yet.
Treeman.... I never perceived that Rob was lending ME advice, ( given that the sudden emergence of that particular bit was a bit of a sudden topic switch ) or trying to state his favored methods as an educational, even if he did come off as a little too sure of himself. Makes me wonder ; if someone wiser and with more credentials felt there was a danger in such comments, could it have been requested that Rob, ( in this case ) clarify that his comments were opinion, and not to be misunderstood as advice ? I'll probably come across as a little ungrateful in the next few words, but the mere fact of an "educational" section doesn't make me feel any safer...anyone could freely roam and read wherever, and whatever, by anyone, and go out and try a method out, and come to plenty of harm. This compartmentalization ensures liability issues are addressed, but the site is still an open bear trap anyone could walk across.
By the way, someone commented something to the effect that, " judging by the types of questions Sam is asking, he may not pick up on nuances, etc..." Can someone find those questions for me, because I believe I've only said hello, and chimed in an opinion a few times...no questions yet. ( unless someone is getting the idea that my post of a question about organising harness carry of gear is some measure of my level of understanding. If people aren't going to pay attention to which question is asked, my Spidey sense tells me to be suspicious !....pro or not. :dry:
Now, I'll go work on that report I'm late with, describing my place in the climbing food chain. :ohmy: Suppose that may help !

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