Why no redundancy in friction savers?

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10 years 4 months ago #136324 by scottnotbombs
Why no redundancy in friction savers? was created by scottnotbombs
Hi everyone, I'm new to tree climbing and have only been researching for about a week. I think the only question I have is why there is no redundancy when you are using a friction saver as a top anchor? I know the steel or aluminum rings are solid in a friction saver, unlike rap rings which are hollow, but they're also experiencing a lot more friction than a rap ring. Would there be any reason for me not to double up on friction savers if I wanted the added security and peace of mind as a beginner?
Thanks!

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10 years 4 months ago #136325 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
The key to managing safety with any life support gear in tree climbing is regular inspection. For example with the two ring friction savers you mention, there is no way you can put enough wear on the rings in one climb to compromise the strength of the rings, or even in a hundred climbs. Nevertheless inspect the webbing and rings before each climb and put your worries to rest. Take a look at the Dan House sleeves sold by New Tribe, waaaay easier to install and remove remotely, much less expensive than ring/ring savers. They are very safe and reliable.

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10 years 4 months ago #136326 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?

scottnotbombs wrote: Would there be any reason for me not to double up on friction savers if I wanted the added security and peace of mind as a beginner?


It would be impossible to remotely install two of the ring/ring friction savers on one rope. You could install two ropes and two ring/ring savers. Typical arborist climbing ropes are in the 6000 lb. breaking strength range, a single rope is already highly redundant rated to 15x the weight of two "average" weight climbers. I believe the ring/rings are rated higher than 6000 lb strength.

I don't think you have a good reason to climb on two of the ring/ring savers.
-AJ

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10 years 4 months ago #136327 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
Welcome to the trees! I gather that you're a new climber, right?

Moss brings up some very good points. First, in regard to a friction saver, the House sleeve is very simple to install and retrieve. Installed with your climbing line on the branch you're climbing on, it's as safe as your climbing line and your tie in point. It protects the tree and the climbing line from damage, and eases the friction as you climb. Also, inspection of your gear and the tree you're climbing in is critical to your safety in the trees.

I take it you're using doubled rope technique, which is the best place to start. It's relatively simple, safe, and effective, provided you are keenly aware of your climbing system and its parts, and the tree you are climbing. There are all kinds of advancements taking place, especially in single rope technique and lots of new gear. But those advancements requires an advance in your experience and understanding to insure your safety and survival. Learn to tie your knots perfectly. There's no such thing as an improperly tied life support knot. They are your most important tools.

As far as backup is concerned, the most important backup is your knowledge. If you haven't, I'd say get training from a qualified instructor, and spend some time with experienced climbers. Also I highly recommend Peter Treeman Jenkins video, Tree Climbing Basics, which you can get right here from the TCI store.

Stay safe, keep studying, and keep climbing. And once again, welcome to the trees!

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10 years 4 months ago #136330 by scottnotbombs
Replied by scottnotbombs on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
Thanks for the advice! I am new to climbing and was planning on using the double rope technique. I'll go with the steel two ring friction saver and inspect before each climb. Thanks again!

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10 years 4 months ago #136333 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
Let us know how you make out with the two ring friction saver, especially installing and retrieving it.

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10 years 4 months ago #136334 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?

dogwood wrote: Let us know how you make out with the two ring friction saver, especially installing and retrieving it.


Yep, I bought one early in my climbing and have used it very rarely since, was too difficult to install remotely. Typically the way a working climber uses one is they access the tree thru secured footlock or some other technique, lanyard in, and install the ring/ring manually in an optimal position, then switch over to DRT to work the tree off the ring/ring.

It's worth remembering that certain gear and technique was evolved for work climbing and may not actually make sense for rec climbing. Depends what a rec climber's objectives are. If you plan on becoming a working climber it makes sense to become familiar with the tools of the trade like ring/rings and related false crotch tools.
-AJ

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10 years 4 months ago #136335 by 2chops
Replied by 2chops on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
Welcome aboard Scott. As far as branch protection goes, don't forget about the humble leather sleeve. As for doubling up on the friction savers, no need. Just bounce the rope a couple of times after you have it over the branch you're tying in to. From the ground of course. Once you're in the canopy and are advancing your rope to the next T.I.P., you want to test the limb by weighting and doing an advance or two before removing your previous tie in point. Just go low and slow till your confidence builds. You should be ok.

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10 years 4 months ago #136337 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
Most of my climbing happens in trees in the woods near my home. It's a wild environment, brushy stuff everywhere on the forest floor and up above. Getting my line set in the tree is an accomplishment all by itself. I think if I tried to use the two ring friction saver I might not get any climbing in! Here's a couple pictures of a scraggly white oak I climbed the other day.

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10 years 4 months ago #136338 by dogwood
Replied by dogwood on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
Here's a couple pictures of a scraggly oak I climbed the other day. In the woods where I climb,



there's brush all around,and it's a challenge just to get a line set in the tree. I think if I had to set and retrieve a two ring friction saver, I might not get to climb.
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10 years 3 months ago #136387 by TreeNate
Replied by TreeNate on topic Why no redundancy in friction savers?
There isn't as much redundancy in trees as rock climbing, and a lot of it has to do with the lack of big, sharp rope cutting rocks. You will get used to having only one rope and tie-in. The equipment we use to climb is so strong that not much can go wrong unless you make a mistake. No mistakes usually equals no accidents. It is very rarely the gear that fails and then it is usually tired, worn out gear that breaks.

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