Production vs Recreational Climbing

I figured I would bring this up to help rec. only climbers become a little more efficient and easier in the tree.

As a professional climb I need to be able to access every part of the tree no matter how far away from the trunk and dangerous it may be. At times this is very rewarding for myself. There are many different tricks and techniques that I use every day and would like to be able to apply them to rec. climbing.

When rec. climbing it is a do anything, gop anywhere you want kinda thing. Do you push yourselfs to go places that aren't really necissary? Do you just swing and jump 10-30' from different parts and leads of a tree to another. Though dangerous I very much injoy swinging.

I just wonder if I would climb the same if I didn't to it professional first. And the answer probally is no. No need to take risks if your not getting paid for it. But I find that the developement of a rec. climbers abilities are very slow from both only doing it a few times a month and not being pushed to explore the entire tree.

Maybe as practice to become a better climber set up little stations in the tree to visit that would take some time and effort to get to. Then sit back look around, read, listen to music, whatever then move to the next station.

I'm just bringing this up to help advance ones climbs if they so desire. So trees are very big and spreading but if you only climb so close to the trunk you are limiting your abilities and the expiriences that go along with it.

Also if you want to try swinging around double crotch and tighten the rope just enough that you won't come back and hit the trunk if you miss the grab. Be safe when you can, but have fun always.

Hi Slingshot,
Just want to remind you about the TCI Basic Tree Climbing Course in Iowa next month. If you can swing it, I believe that there is one spot left. All gear will be provided and a discount on the DRT kit will be available from New Tribe for the course grads.

Send me a u2u if interested.


Adventure-UP!!

Production vs. Rec Climbing. . .
Good point! (and a favorite topic of mine)

As a rec climber, I have no deadline or workload. I set my own challenges. It’s like running a railroad with no timetable. (What a breeze that would be, eh)?

However, even as a rec climber I (we) have been placed in situations that turn the fun into work. When does it become “work”? Simple. . . Gear-Rescue

Some of the most demanding climbs I have ever done, have been in the name of “Gear Rescue”. Getting a few of my favorite pieces caught-up in some of the worst thinkable places in the canopy and, frequently toward the end of the day when your energy and daylight levels are starting to run low.
Now, it’s no longer leisure. It’s a mission. And it’s usually far from home which means leaving your stuff in the tree and coming back another day for it is a pain in the butt!

Yes Sir, I would concur (in response to climber020). As a working arborist, you have to get the task done and move on to the next job, even if it means stretching your comfort & safety limits a bit.

---

Electrojake (founding father of the Armchair Arborists Guild)

Or, maybe we could also find someone who will teach "beyond the basics" so as to learn to move all around in the canopy, no matter where or at what height. And of course do it safely and efficiently.
Does anybody know of a course or someone who would teach at this level?
Please let us all know. That way we could all learn more tricks or safety procedures or efficiency.
A good example would be to learn all the various ways to limbwalk, etc. Peter, I believe mentioned at the basics course, that he promotes three ways. I'd love to learn these. Do ya'll know what they are or how to perform them?(challenge for thought)
What other maneuvers would anyone else like to try? --So maybe some more experienced members could chime in to suggest their solutions.

Good point climber020, rec climbers progress in climbing skills more slowly than arborists because they don't usually get to climb as often. The more you climb the more skills you can acquire. It takes time to learn to trust equipment and branch strength etc. Also many of us climb alone most of the time, learning is slower that way. Whenever I climb with rec climbers or arborists the learning increases exponentially. And having the support of another climber in the tree makes a huge difference.

The cool thing is that even a relatively new rec climber like me can show an arborist something new. I've showed several very experienced arborists the "one foot" footlock technique commonly used by rec climbers for DdRT ascent. They'd never seen it and loved it. The best thing that rec climbers can do for arborists to help them mellow out in a tree.

To answer your question, yes I often try to expand my skills when I climb. Some days I just feel like being in the tree is good enough. Other days I try new stuff and push the limits.

I like your tip on strategic double crotching for swings. Makes sense, if you can move the lowest point of the swing away from the trunk that's going to reduce impact danger. I'll try and play around with that.

Anyone have some tricks they use for limb walking on branches rising with an upward angle? It can be tough since it's like climbing a steep hill with a rope trying to pull you off the slope. I've tried putting my lanyard above me on the branch and working up that way but it's slow going. I have tried crawling up the underside of the branch and used the angle of the rope from the TIP to help keep me there with a lanyard on the branch as backup. It works, any other ideas on that?
-moss

What's this one foot footlock that you mention? Enquiring arborists want to know!

JBird posted some photos here explaining the technique. He shows both double and single foot technique, the single is halfway through his post:

Footlocking explanation in photos

-moss

One foot footlocking is great. I use it all the time now for DdRT, since I'm often climbing in settings where body thrusting would be awkward (and my strenght/weight ratio isn't very good for body thrusting in any case...). Got the original idea from JBird's photos, but didn't quite "get it" until somebody showed me in person.

Climber 020
Recreational climbers usually climb near the trunk. However, lead climbers often go out on branches to clear out hung branches before the rest of the team comes up. I was the lead production climber for my tree care business (25 years) and developed many fast methods for getting out on a limb because of the economics; do it safely and quickly and get better financial returns. I am an exception as far as speed in that I was practicing technique on a daily basis- it was my job as a working arborist. Recreational climbers make those limb walks for sure eventually for Treeboat and camp set ups but not to the far reaches of limbs, unless they were working tree care folks in the past.

I have made branch walking and lateral movement a study over the years. Martial arts have many animal styles where they designed moves and systems of movement by observing how wild animals do it. I have noticed animals have tree climbing styles too and have studied how they do it and related it to tree climbing moves. Looking at how moves are made has improved my climbing technique significantly. Specific footwork follows specific moves in the tree while on rope. Some of the moves are not animal related.

For example the Bird Walk. This move has the feet 90 degrees to the limb. The rope is of course higher above the climber (as it should be with all lateral moves) but here the footwork defines the animal style. The feet move in a side shuffling motion to go out and come in. The feet do not cross. Watch birds and you’ll see them do it with precision.

Under climbing, or Sloth Walking, has the body under a branch. Ever seen how a sloth does it? Moss, that might be what your are describing. This a difficult move for heavy humans. The lanyard backup shows common sense and good climbing practice. It is a much more advanced style of climbing, not for beginners with wobbly legs on top of a branch.

Can anyone describe how a Snake Walk might look like? What does the snake do to keep on a branch? Think about it. It is also a style of climbing (advanced at that) that is worthy of noting.

How about a Cat Walk? How are the feet positioned and how do the feet move? This is an intermediate technique and quite fast if you can focus ONLY on the branch you are walking out on and ignoring the depth perception below. It’s a bit like walking a balance beam.

Anyone else have some observations on branch walking skills? What styles can you think of? Can anyone guess what a Slam Dance might include (I just made that one up)?

Limb walking - I can tell I'm a puss when I do it. All slow and careful and what-not. I imagine working for a tree service with a Sr. Climber yelling at me, "FOR CHRISSAKES GET OUT THERE MAKE THE CUT, GET BACK, WE DON'T HAVE ALL DAY!!". So then I try to go a bit faster, all the while thinking, if I swing what will I hit? can I get back up? how will I get down?

Love the animal metaphors. My daily dynamic system climb now involves a limb walk at the end, that I think of as the skateboard position. It's that bird walk you were talking about. Feet are either 90* to the limb, and at the end the branch goes more vertical and then it's one parallel and one 90* It's an easy one because the TIP has the line almost perfectly in front of me - I just follow and reel it in.

I also need to see this single footlock. Sounds great.

A problem for me is, I'm going up for a workout. I have a corp job, and a two year old. When I go up, I want to move move move. I don't have a lot of time to play around. I'm torn between wanting to do all this cool stuff you speak of, and getting my cardio in.

When I first set my lines in a tree, it's a mission to get to the maximum safe TIP. So there's a lot of re-crotching and moving about. But once I know I'm going the most distance, I stick with that path as a workout.

With the exception of tree work I do locally for neighbors, I climb the same tree every day, using two different lines, two techniques, one SRT and one dynamic system. I crotch the highest possible, and manage whatever I have to to do the route.

I think that if I take the time try new paths, explore, I'll lose the active part that keeps me fit. Actually, I'd probably be so tense from covering uncharted territory that my heart would beat twice as fast!

And dull as it sounds, I learn so much just from climbing every day, all little efficient things I pick up, and some biggies that really are light bulbs going on. Point is, it's not boring doing the same, until I do it for an entire season. Luckily, I have enough trees on my own property to switch off quite a bit.

(Did you think I'd buy a house without big trees everywhere? NOT!)

Peter, I've done the "snake walk" before. The 1st time i did it was when doing a ROW trim for the power Co. It was a big, curvy black cherry. Here's how it went. WARNING! Spikes were involved. Yea, yea I know. But it was work. So anyhow...

I went up and at about 25' the tree curved off at a near 90degree angle for about 10' and then gently slopped back up to verticle. Since I was only connected with my lanyard, I had to lay belly down and had one leg behind me with the knee drapped to one side and my foot hooked/drapped on the other. My other leg I kept loosely held directly under me for counter balance. My hands were in front of me to lift / pull me along as my top leg pushed me forward. The wind was really blowing this particular day, so the tree surfing factor was a bonus. Especially once I got out to where the work was.

Funny thing about all this was that after only 2 cuts my saw went kaput. I had to lower it down & wait a while for a replacement. So I laid there for several minutes, basking in the sun and enjoying the sway, feeling for all the world like a big raccoon napping the afternoon away.

So there you have it. That's my "snake walk" experience.

Ron

2chops wrote:

...... ROW trim ....... Spikes were involved.... But it was work........

Ron

Only climb trees with spikes when you remove them! You damage the tree with spikes, and most time fungi is growing in the holes.

Yes gerhard, I do agree that NORMALY one should only use spikes on removals. But,...

Here in PA, USA, our electric power supply lines are run on poles about 30' above ground. Many places the power distribution lines are under ground. I don't know how the setup is in Austria, but overhead is the way it's usualy done here. Anyways, When we were trimming for right-of-way clearance, the trees were from only 4' to 20' away from the wires. Now this is 7.5KV mind you. Touch it and you die. This is no place for using a throwline to set your rope. Even with a Big Shot, bad things will happen. Plus our contract was set up that we got paid by the mile. Fifteen to 20 climbs a day was the norm.

I have been up many trees that have been spiked up once every 4-5 years for 40 years and they are doing quite well. Yes I agree that all those holes make them susceptible to bugs and disease. But by and large they manage to do ok.

On the other hand, we are currently doing ROW for the State Department Of Transportation. Mostly roadside, bucket truck trims. But sometimes we get to do work in the roadside rest areas. Now these are fun because these climbs are absolutly spike free. More to my preference. No traffic to deal with. No overhead power lines to fret over.

I hope that I'm not comming across as biting back at you. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to give you some background info on the nature of ROW work. And as the topic of this thread indicates, It's production, not recreational climbing.

With my best regards,

Ron

We also have overheadlines in Austria, and we also are doing line clearence. The diffrence in austria is that we have redundance in the utility grid. So it is possible to go offline with the powerlines for a while. (mostly 1-4 hours).
I know that this is not possible in the US. diffrent type of gridconstructon.

Yes it's true, diffrent countries diffrent types of work.
But we never used spikes at lineclearance. So I'm wondering why the US arborist are doing this.

MFG
gerhard

gerhard, I can tell you why we still use spikes for ROW trims in one word...MONEY. I'll share a typical experience with you.

The tree company I work for is big on safety. The power co., who shall remain nameless, talks a good game on safety. The "official" word is "Safety 1st." But there's an unspoken finish to this that is understood. It is, "...unless it interferes with production." As I stated before, by the contract we were getting paid by the mile. Each "job" was in the form of a map which was generally worth from 1 - 4 miles. All of the work on one map could be done except for one trim, and we wouldn't get paid for all those miles just because of that one unfinnished trim. So...

Our whole company had just undergone a day long safety seminar put on by the power co. We were told that if any trim was deemed to be too unsafe to do, the power co. would gladly come out and give us an outage or put rubber "snakes" on the line so we could do the work safely. Ok, great. Fast forward only 1 1/2 weeks later, we came to a big silver maple that had 30' suckers growing up through the 3 phase. We asked for an outage. Only 4 customers would be affected for 30 minutes. We were told no. Ok then, how about some "snakes" then. No. Why not, we asked. We were told, and I quote, " If "snakes" are installed, and someone gets electrocuted, then the power co. could be sued because the installation of the "snakes" is an admission that the trim was too dangerous to do without an outage." Fine then give us the outage. Nope. Not happening. And why not? you may ask. MONEY. The power co. didn't want to give the outage because that would eliminate the affected customers usage. And no usage means no income. My foreman at the time was so angry about this that we went over and did the trim anyway. What a mess. It was only by the hand of God that he didn't get fried on that one. They wanted to write him up for an unsafe work practice. Some thanks huh?

So there you go. And that's only one instance of many that we had to deal with with those guys. Imagine that. The power co. was willing to let a guy get hurt for only 4 customers' worth of cash. But that's America. I've worked many jobs in my time, and that's the typical attitude of those in management. "Safety 1st,...as long as it doesn't interfere with production."

Sorry for the rant. But there you go.

Ron