Why would you hide?

Why would you hide an instructor forum?

The mixed signals sent by TCI have always confused me. On the one hand, TCI's web site and Beginner's Class introduced safe tree climbing to me. These are both great ways that TCI contributes to promoting recreational tree climbing. On the other hand, I've always wondered why TCI's instructors share so little on its forums. Others wondered similar thoughts in the " Tree Climbing with Others! " thread. It seems that part of the answer is they would rather communicate in a hidden forum.

Why?

Being new to treeclimbing I have spent extensive time gathering information from online resources. There is not much to be found. This leads me to two conclusions: 1. There is not much to this. or 2. No one is sharing.

I admire the honesty of Peter Jenkins in acknowledging there is an economic interst at stake. We should all understand that. Some posts tend to hide behind the pursuit of safety when in reality they are hiding trade secrets.

I am no expert rock climber, tree climber. caver or anything else involving rope. My expertise is in Backpacking. The Harvard of my field is Nathional Outdoor Leadership School. NOLS does not protect their secrets. They publish them. The coursework developed for their Instructor Courses are avalible to the public for purchase. Why is this not the case in treeclimbing?

People are starting to climb trees more and more. Without guidence many will get hurt badly. The basics of safely moving into and out of trees should be open. I am satisfied you can learn these basics now with the avalible resources. The basics of instructing others is what is being hidden. If TCI is going to lead then it must publish. Whoever has the most published works sets the agenda of the conversation.

http://www.nols.edu/store/books/

This link will put you in the NOLS bookstore. Click on the Instructors Notebooks tab to find the info you seek. Also avalible are the various wilderness guides that cover different outdoor environments from wilderness kayaking to wilderness mountaineering.

This knowledge is avalible for anyone who wants it. NOLS is respected not for the knowledge they posess but for the education they provide. Anyone can read all they law books in the library and that does not make them a Harvard Law grad. Knowledge is not what people seek when they seek out instruction. An instructor able to help you navigate the waters and point out your weeknesses is what you pay for. If all you are offering in your courses is data and experience then they are not worth a nickle. You must teach students how to process data to be effective.

I own Phil Power's book on Wilderness Mountaineering. Reading it made me very aware of the skills necessary to survive Denali. I am convinced I do not posess the skills to summit this peak. I also do not posess the skill to reach the top of a west coast red wood. I have had no trouble climbing to the top of the 50 foot oak in my back yard and have utter confidence I can take others to the top as well.

I am an educator. My skill is being able to push students beyond their perceived limits of understanding and clarify their misunderstandings. I am paid well for these skills - as any educator should be. But I am not paid for my data. It is freely avalible as long as you respect the rights of the publisher.

This is how the world works. Either TCI will lead the field or some other organization will. In the word repeated in every university department in the world "Publish or parish"

Ah, and they say sarcasm is dead, Dan. Maybe it needs to be more direct.

I took a flying lesson and have done some flying with a friend in his single engine plane. Now I'd like to teach flying. But I don't want to be irresponsible, so I'll try to get ahold of a manual and study up first.

Assuming I was able to find one, would my teaching be of concern to certified flight instructors and others such as aspiring pilots, airport operators, the insurance industry, and the public?

TCI is not perfect, but it would be irresponsible for TCI to encourage any climber to just go out and instruct others in what could be potentially fatal activity (unlike say, backpacking), with only some written instructions to go on.

Responsible educators know the value of professionalism, standards, and credentials. After all, I could send in my $200 and get a Masters or teaching degree from an online diploma mill.

As for instructors talking among themselves, it's true. We do share experiences, thoughts on procedures, teaching tips, etc. Many instructors are also among the most frequent posters to this board, freely sharing their thoughts and insights.

You want to instruct others in safe recreational tree climbing? Please take the TCI Basic Tree Climbing and facilitators courses, then follow the requirements for becoming a certified instructor. This is the process that represents the culmination of over 20 years experience and practice of many dedicated people.

Harv

It never ceases to amaze me how gracious and diplomatic some of you guys are when responding to criticism. (Is that sarcasm direct enough for you, Harv?)

You can walk into any university bookstore and buy the textbooks for any course offered at the school, and nobody will ever ask for proof that you have paid the tuition fee. Would this be the same as actually attending the lectures and doing the coursework? Absolutely not, and I don't see any indication that prosigna is claiming that it is the same, any more than Rescueman et al were saying that in the "Tree Climbing With Others" thread.

To claim that providing information outside of the context of a paid, organized course is negligent or unsafe is specious, and, I think, self-serving. Most of the written information pertinent to tree climbing that I have found is in Dick Flowers' "Recreational Tree Climbing"; Jeff Jepson's "The Tree Climber's Companion"; and Smith and Padgett's "On Rope". These authors have all covered their legal butts by providing the disclaimer that a book does not replace proper instruction. What would be wrong with TCI (or some individual instructors) publishing similar books? Do you people really believe that the aforementioned authors are negligent about the safety of their readers, simply by providing information that is unaccompanied by a course?

I have learned much on this website, but most of the information hasn't actually been provided by TCI instructors. Most has been given by fellow enthusiasts, and visiting arborists such as Tom Dunlap, NickfromWI, stevebullman, etc. Some instructors, like Joe Maher, are exceptionally generous with their expertise, but not all are. Far too often on this site criticisms and certain types of questions are answered with sarcasm and condescension. Like prosigna I also am a certified educator, and I can tell you that there is nothing very professional about an instructor giving that sort of response.

Sincerely,
Brad

Harv, I'm sorry I did not make myself clear. We can all agree on two things. The first is the value of quality instruction. The second is instructors should be certified.

"Responsible educators know the value of professionalism, standards, and credentials. After all, I could send in my $200 and get a Masters or teaching degree from an online diploma mill. "

TCI has established no far reaching reputation for professionalism, published no set of standards, and recieved no credentials from a governing body. The only arguement I have been given for a TCI education is the claim you have been at it a while and you think your good.

I direct youth camps for a few weeks out of the summer. If I wanted to start a treeclimbing program I would have to clear that with a board of directors. If I received a TCI eduaction and went to them armed with TCI credentials I would be laughed out of the room. NOLS courses receive collage credit at almost every university in the country.

I am a trusting guy. I trust you provide good training. You just have not proved it. Right now I would be better equiped in the eyes of the outside world with an ISA instructors training and an Emergency First Responder Certificate.

There will be a certification for treeclimbing instructors acceptable to schools and oraganizations alike. Right now TCI is not good enough. If TCI publishes and sets the standard in the field then they will be the accepted authority on treeclimbing education.

Again, I am not trying to ruffle feathers or cause a fight. My posts are long but my questions are simple. Is TCI interested in setting the standard for education? If so is TCI willing to publish a book titled "How to educate treeclimbers"? Or are we going to stick with the old company line of "It really is good. You really should try it."? Is TCI interested in working toward collage credit?

Thanks for your replies Brad and prosigna. I agree that TCI has been too slow in working on and publishing standards. If TCI has erred (and I talk of TCI in the third person because I'm still not clear as to who can call themselves TCI), they've erred on the side of caution. I hope that soon there will be some basic standards that will be put forward. Part of the reluctance may have been due to the realization that no standards are going to be acceptable to everyone, and that this might be just one more polarizing issue.

My personal feeling is, however, than no disclaimer in a stand-alone manual is sufficient if our primary concern continues to be safety and maintaining a public reputation for safety. Once that line is crossed, there will undoubtedly be those who don't even bother with any or part of the manual before going out and teaching others. Should this be a concern to us?

I too have learned a lot from the non-instructors and arborists on this list, and from climbing with some of them. But no amount of climbing knowledge and skill ensures that someone will also be a good teacher of those skills. There's a big difference between being a good mathematician and being a good math teacher.

On the other hand, perhaps if non TCI-certified climbers began teaching, it might prod TCI to get moving on standards and expanding their programs and outreach. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Perhaps in the long run, this might be the best way to ensure that a TCI certification has some differentiation and carries some weight with prospective students, public agencies, and the public. Let's hope it doesn't come at the cost of someone falling out of a tree.

I totally agree with Harv.TCI does has a very good system with safety rule for recreational tree climbing. that's why I'm all the way fly from Taiwan to TCI to learn safety climbing.

Dan and Harv, thanks for the infusion of civility into this thread. It's amazing how much we can all agree on, if we just keep the discussion courteous!

Dan, I've been wanting to get one of those Basic Tree Climbing manuals ever since Abe mentioned that he was working on one, some time ago on this forum. I can't seem to find a copy to buy, how did you get ahold of your obviously rare manuscript? Where can I get one?

Thanks,
Brad

I'm wondering how open ISA or other profesional organizations would be to recreational climbing. Seems like I read about Peter Jenkins running into oposition for giving away trade secrets when he started teaching amatures. They have an economic interest in not recognizing us and I bet that money talks louder than a concern for safty.

NOLS carries the same legandary reputation in the wilderness travel comunity that TCI does in rec treeclimbing. One thing they earned is collage credit from the closest university to them. That translated into wideheld acceptence of their courses by most major institutions. Their websit even lists collages that have accepted their courses and the list is long and distinguished (including all the ivy league schools).

I have read about some university forestry departments teaching treeclimbing. Is there a widly held standard they use we do not?

The US forestry department lists New Tribe as a source for rec treeclimbing instruction on their website. Why is TCI not listed?

http://www.fs.fed.us/treeclimbing/training/

If you follow that link to New Tribe it lists alot of schools including TCI. For them to use New Tribe as their link puts New Tribe in the drivers seat of endorsing instructors.

Of course most of this covers what to teach basic skills courses and not what constitutes an instructor. What do universities require of a treeclimbing instructor? They don't hire anyone without credentials.

What makes a good benchmark for recreational tree climbing to follow for the purpose of achieving standards? I support open publication of information. Because recreational tree climbing is in its enfancy, there's not a wealth of publications. However, I don't hold TCI solely responsible for standards or publications. I can't think of any instances where a business wrote the standards for their market or provided open source to their core capabilities. Usually societies are organized and control the standards to benefit growth of a market. Meanwhile the individual business retains their proprietary techniques (e.g. instruction method) and strategies.

As a business, I have found TCI to be open. The fact that we're debating their service within the forum provided by them is rather amazing. Not many businesses in emerging markets are so accomodating, mature and open. Several of us add informational links, and I haven't seen one deleted.

I can't blame TCI for being protective of its information. They're operating a business. I can't make money to feed my family through this forum, and I wouldn't expect them to do it.

Certainly, more information is needed from a society where the mission is to unite the adventurer with proven safe techniques.

Is the caving industry the appropriate benchmark the recreational tree climber? They seem to have an abundance of open publication and debate on a known treacherous adventure. As a point of interest, they supported the publication of "On Rope", which now has a chapter dedicated to tree climbing.

Regards,
JimK

TCI made a decision not to have the Instructors Forum open to the public. Why? Because the forum is specifically for TCI instructors.

Let’s look at a college as an example for a point in reference. The professors meet to discuss course curriculum. Who would come? The professors that are teaching the courses. Would they invite students or those off the street to participate? Of course not. It would bore these students and bystanders to death to discuss forms, course development procedures, and the like. It is an instructor to instructor conversation.

We would love to add to our ranks other instructors because the need is growing. However, you will need to go through several stages to get to the status of instructor. First there’s the Basic Course. After the course you will be tested and required to climb a certain number of trees and log them in a logbook before moving to the Facilitators level.

The Facilitators Takes about 5 days of course work. You are tested and must log in a few hundred first time climbers with climbing events you sponsor. You will of course need quite a few sets of climbing gear to do this which you purchase. You will also need a place to do it. You will need your own insurance too.

The Instructors level of training takes around 5 days of course work. You are no longer teaching people how to have fun by just moving up and down the ropes. You are now teaching people how to tie all of the knots and turning them loose on their own. This takes in a much larger liability.

All of this training takes an incredible commitment. It takes literally years. It also takes good instructors with high standards. Anyone is invited to join us as instructors. But you will have to show commitment as the other instructors have who converse on the Instructors Forum.

Thanks for the explanation, Peter. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with the existence of a private instructor forum, for all the reasons you give, and even if the only reason was that it was your website and you felt like it.

I would love to take some training from TCI, since it is the first and most established of the schools, but time and money constraints prevent me from doing so, either down there or up here near to home.

I would still like to have some degree of TCI influence in my learning, however, even if it only took the form of literature. How is it that the oldest, most established, most influential, arguably the best, tree climbing teaching institution cannot (or will not) provide a customer with an official TCI climbing manual?

There could be separate texts for all the levels from Basic on up to Instructor, they would cover the same basic information that would be taught in a course, and they might even function as texts for students at TCI.
Obviously, reading one of these books would not be the same as also having access to the knowledge and experience that an instructor brings to an actual course, and relying solely on the book might not be as safe as attending a class to learn.

However, there must be many people like me who can't (or even won't) attend your courses, but who are going to learn by themselves anyway. At present, the only influence you have on people like me is this forum, but if you published books explaining the TCI way, you could be having considerably more influence on us, albeit not as much as on a student. A disclaimer ensures that you are not liable, and, of course, nobody expects you to give any degree of certification to a book-reading customer.

TCI people say that providing information without an accompanying course is unsafe, but I would argue that withholding information from people who are going to self-teach anyway is even more unsafe. By selling information to people who cannot (or will not) attend actual TCI classes, you are still doing the most you can to help keep these climbers safe. Think of it in terms of harm reduction, if you will. This would show concern for safety, not the opposite.

This wouldn't even have to be solely an act of altruism; you presumably would price the books to make a profit, and, if the books were good, they would likely be used by other tree climbing schools lacking the means to publish their own. Furthermore, I cannot imagine why publishing your own training manuals wouldn't enhance your legitimacy in the eyes of bureaucracies, both government and private, and the general public, with a resulting increase in the legitimacy of tree climbing in general.

What do you think?

Cheers!
Brad

I did indeed have a manual that TCI members learned from in the early days. It was a print publication titled “Basic Tree Climbing Methods” It was a double sized newsletter- about 25 pages (I can’t remember how many), with diagrams and trouble shooting charts etc. Dick Flowers and Jeff Jepson (he was an early student) learned from it.

I made a triple print run (3000 +?) and I eventually used them all up with TCI members and give aways. I nearly went broke doing that particular issue- back when you had to shoot photographic plates for two pages at a time. My newsletter issues were magazine quality. They were nice to look at, very pricy to produce, and even more sporadic in publication regularity.

I was doing membership dues for $20 a year with very limited success. Computers were a bit new back in those (DOS) days and prone to crashing- no auto save functions. I was never good at details, like tracking memberships, and software to do the job was nonexistent. A classic case of bad timing, technology wise.

The manual needs to be reworked, as there are numerous practices and tools that are no longer used. The manual will be revisited when I finish the current big writing project.

I will not bore you with the reasons I have not redone the original manual. We will save that information for the biography that will be published (if there is one) after I am gone. I am just not doing it now- that’s all.