Tree Climbing with Others!

Recently I have read 2 entries on this site and within the last month have heard of 2 other conversations that prompt me to say the following. Tree climbing outside of the commericial/professional area is just over 20 years old. Many have come and gone over the years and some of us are still around. I got my beginnings some 15+ years ago from the founder of recreational tree climbing, Peter Jenkins, of which this web site and message board is owned. As of this week and through the years he and I along with others have brought tree climbing to interested folks around the world. Always from, the beginning to and including the present SAFTEY has been at the forefront and the hallmark of recreational/technical tree climbing. However as tree climbing has grown so has the interest in others to participate; some with proper training and this is good to yet an alarming number that wish to by pass a formal training class for excuses that cover all kinds of things from A to Z. This is bad enough for someone that is all about themselves, but to take it a step further and try to facilitate others and yet another step further to teaching others is frought with DANGER! I have been a part of TCI for 15+ years and have had my own Grove and tree climbing school for over 8 years and to learn of people and camps and organizations and schools etc. that would permit any adventure/experiential program to be conducted without their staff being properly trained, grove designated, tree/s area properly cleaned and prepped, adequate and proper equipment used, and protocols of climbing established is very SCARY to me and ripe for serious problems to develope. If you are going to climb for yourself take at least the Basic Class and perhaps later the Beyond the Basics. If you are going to conduct climbing for others such as in a group climb you MUST have a minimumof the Basic Class and the Facilitator Class. And if you are going to do both of the forementioned and wish to teach others the Basic or how to Facilitate then at the LEAST you must have compleated the apprenticeship program and or taken the Instructors Course. And this is to only work/climb with the general populations. Should you wish to climb with special populations then additional training is required. These levels of training are of the minimum as years of practice and working in the feild of adventure/experiential programming will continue to teach you new and more complete methods of being safe as will the litature and ongoing training and gatherings you attend. DO NOT SHORT CHANGE YOUR APPROACH TO TREE CLIMBING! Yes, it is fun, and a joy and many of us did it as a child, but it is serious business once you get yourself or anyone else off the ground. We began with a safe vertical adventure some 20 years ago and I for one will do all I can to continue to keep this history as perfect as I can. Please let us hear from you; I can be reached here or at www.treeclimbingusa.com or 770-587-6929 or you can reach Peter Jenkins at this site or at 404-320-9040. Until; Safety in and for the trees worldwide! Abe

My phone # is 770-487-6929 not 587-6929; sorry for the error. The rest of the text is on target and I hope all will take it seriously. It will only take one accident to draw attention to us in ways none of us want.

While quite interested in your program and the rich culture of skills associated with TCI in the Eastern USA, I don't think it will be feasible for me to attend your courses in the foreseeable future.

It is reasonable for you to demand a skill level for those teaching others, but it is not reasonable to expect everyone to be able to access, afford, or be able to attend the courses you run. Everyone wants to be the safest instructor they can, but classes requiring several days, several hundred dollars, and proximity to the network of TCI groves are prohibitive.

What do you think of posting your standards for teachers?

It may be useful to bring your curriculum out on the public domain. Many people are selftaught or come from different disciplines. Obviously it is great to have a certification process, but how can you accomodate those who are not part of the TCI fold? Your posting seems to imply that those who have not graduated from your courses are unsafe climbers, yet it is also those people who have learned elsewhere that are most likely to bring a diversity of skills and approaches to your technique.

I will confess being quite curious as to your standards, but will never feel a need to take your courses.

The classes would of course be an excellent experience, but my lack of ribbons doesn't make me an unqualified instructor- it just makes me an un TCI certified instructor.

While a senior member of an exciting network, you are perhaps unaware of the surprisingly rich environment of treeclimbing in existence. To say "Tree climbing outside of the commericial/professional area is just over 20 years old" is simply not true.

There are little kids, environmental activists, birds nest raiders, kite res cuers, emergency search and rescue personnel, coconut fetchers, amateur cat rescuers, honeybee swatm collectors, kauri pine sap miners entomologists, wildlife ecologists, epiphyte samplers, big kids, deer hunters, birdwatchers, thrill seekers, cavers practicing SRT and rock climbers having a go and lumberjacks on springboards, spurs, ropes and all sorts of people visiting the treetops, and of course the tree surgeons.

Good to read your opinion, but with all due respect I think there must be some other avenues of fostering safe climbing teachers that would be more applicable.

Right now, it is wrong to say an instructor MUST have these credentials (or any credentials). "Must" implies that it is a requirement....a necessity. Right now it is just a hope or desire.

Hunting is a dangerous sport. Like tree climbing, it too can kill you. When you go out in to the woods there is a policing body that protects you and those hunting within shooting range of you. If stopped by the DNR, you must (in the areas I've been in) provide proof that you have taken a gun/hunting safety class. Though proof of this class does not mean you are "safe," it IS a legal hoop that you must jump through before you can hunt. And to take it a step further, not just anyone can teach these classes. There are laws designed to protect all parties involved.

Tree climbing is very different. There are no laws. We are self governing. If a park ranger followed me into the woods then watched me as I went up, then waited for me to come down, then started asking me questions trying to figure out what I was doing, they would not ask nor care who I was trained by and what credentials I have. I do not have to show that I have a minumum understanding of the safety procedures involved with climbing trees.

It was proposed to me once that a student only takes with them 10% of what the teacher taught. I don't agree with the number, but I agree that a student will leave a class knowing LESS than what they were taught. They will miss some of the things.

Therefore, it is best to start with a higher caliber of teacher. These teacher are few and far between. TCI would be a great place to find them. Unfortunately, we do not all have the time, money, and opportunity to partake in their lessons. Does that mean many of us are not adequate or excellent teachers? Of course it doesn't. I KNOW that I and others could take a group of eager learners and show them the basics in short time.

In short, recreational tree climbing is a new and sparse activity. A group in Georgia cannot bestow upon itself the right to make the rules that affect the rest of us without everyone's (or a majority's) consent. Recommendations can be made. Good recommendations will be followed by most. But for now, that is all that can be expected by everyone.

That being said, I look forward to taking some courses at TCI! I hope one day to open my own grove. And for the record, I do not hunt.

love
nick

I'm new to this site, and have never climbed a tree with ropes and saddles. I've spent a few days looking over the information here on the TCI website, as well as other sites like TCUSA, and New Tribe... etc. I'm intrigued and excited to give tree climbing a try. Problem is I live in Pennsylvania, and while Georgia isn't a million miles away... it isn't next door either. In the brief moments that I've spent enjoying the TCI website it appears to me that many of the tools and techniques are borrowed and/or adapted from Arborist and Rock climbers. If a person wasn't able to attend a TCI certified school or event, and still had a desire to learn how to climb, wouldn't an arborist training class be a suitable substitute. They seem to offer many of the same skills, including Aerial rescue. (Here is an example I found on the web http://www.acrtinc.com/iauf_ba.html ) I'd love to attend a TCI course but in the event I can't make it to Georgia, I know I'd be comfortable and feel safe learning from a certified Arborist training center. I think I'd probably even be comfortable learning from a friend, as long as I respected his/her abilities and regard for safety. I know should I ever decide to take up rock climbing I needn't look any further than my friend Mike. His abilities, knowledge, regard for safety, and experiences are as good as it gets. Were he a tree climber instead of a rock climber I'd feel 100% safe in his teaching hands.


I agree with Abe in that new climbers should learn from experienced, safe minded, and preferably certified individuals, but I don't necessarily agree that the teaching individual should be TCI certified. While TCI might very well be the best learning experience for recreational climbing, its founding members obviously had to learn from some place other than TCI. Peter Jenkins was a rock climber and a certified arborist. If learning from and arborist school was good enough for peter, I think it's probably good enough for the rest of us too.

Just my thoughts

This holiday weekend finds the nays' having the yeas' outnumbered in my topic of the 28th. Yet I won't quibble or recant my position that to facilitate and or instruct others any skill where risk is involved requires that individual to be qualified in their approach, content, and desired outcome. Having said that can others outside TCI and or Groves associated with TCI Teach? Of course! But buyer be aware. It is not that we have all the answers and never will as this is a process and a dynamic one at that. Knowing what the purpose of your program is or why you wish to climb with others or what you intend for your clients and or students to do with what you teach them is an important ingredent in how you teach, what you teach and when to teach. Yes, there are many methods of tree climbing. Each have applications to specific needs while climbing and a good climber will have mulitiple skills at their disposal. To learn from an arborist or from the approved ISA or ASA training facilities and instructors is a route one can go. Keep in mind their purpose in teaching know doubt will parallel mastering the skills needed in entering the professional/commercial side of the tree climbing industry and not necessarilly that of recreation/education/edge-ucation/research/adaptive/experiential or other reasons to learn techinical/recreational tree climbing. Can their methods and proceedures be adapted to recreational/technical tree climbing? Yup! However we at TCI and other associated Groves that have gone on in our own right have gotten much of the groundwork established in that which is being taught and that which should be taught at this stage in the evolution of recreational tree climbing. We are open to suggestions and learn of new ideas and techniques and safety precautions all the time. For those that say we should not hide our information or methods I say we don't. Never have, nor never will! However to open up the how to and all that has gone into our teaching and programming to date is available for the price of a class. To give it out to anyone is not wise nor a prudent course of action I can or would support. However, saying that we do have information that is for the serious student and can be had. Since those of you who feel I am being closed minded about this topic of Climbing for Self or with Others, especially Others whom you are taking on the responsibility for, get over it! Learn from a compitent qualified source prior to proceeding or go to whatever disipline that requires less of their instructors and stay away from teaching others tree climbing as you are an accident waiting to happen. Perhaps those of you with various techniques and varried backgrounds will meet with us in Nebraska in September and take part in a show and share portion of that event (check our web sites for updated information). As well as get an opportunity to air your opinions and offer constructive comments that can be incorporated into our overall goal of providing a quality activity that is centered on safety first followed by fun and learning close behind. So those of you who disagree with my approach are free to do so; however step up with some specifics as to how to improve that which many of us have been working on for years and give us the opportunity to evaluate your contributions and incorporate where needed or continue on responding with knee jerk receations. For those of you that already are climbing with others be that events, festivals, open, guided, or teaching to a specific population or to a general Grove population I would love to hear from you as to your thoughts on this topic. And yes, Peter you too! Please let us hear from the man who founded technical/recreational tree climbing. Until; Safety in and for the trees worldwide! Abe

How shall I reply to this? Let me start with the fact that I did NOT invent recreational tree climbing. Ask any kid- from age 3-103 and they will tell you of tree climbing experiences. What I DID do was start the world's first school aimed specifically at the recreational tree climbing arena- not the commercial, scientific, or activist arena. The techniques taught mostly came from my profession as an arborist taking care of trees. I had already experienced the concept of a climbing school- I went to a rock climbing school in Colorado when I was in my early 20's.

The concept of climbing trees with a rope and harness using techniques and equipment as used by a professional arborist WAS new in 1983. It was not met with enthusiasm from my profession as an arborist. I was giving away "trade secrets." Lots of professionals were not at all happy with me. It was very disappointing to have my professional peers against me in this matter in the early days.

I knew at that time 21 years ago that I had the unique opportunity to shape a whole new outdoor activity. I was quite optimistic that it could become just as poplar as bicycle riding. Why? Because trees are everywhere. This is not so with good climbing rock or caves. I felt that tree climbing could be THE next vertical climbing medium that most anyone could get involved in. This has not happened yet as far as popularity. It may never happen in my lifetime either. But I had two very big concerns in the beginning about the early stages of tree climbing.

The first concern was safety. As a child I watched rock climbing start in the Rocky Mountain National Park. Did you know it used to be illegal to climb in that park? It was primarily because rangers did not know what rock was nor did they know how to rescue stranded climbers. Many climbers were maimed and killed (and still are) climbing rocks. I did not want that to happen with tree climbing. Thus I and a few climbers started developing climbing standards that we practiced and taught to our students. To this day there have been no injuries or fatalities after tens of thousands have gone through our programs.

My second concern was for the trees. The early days of rock climbing had methods that destroyed rock surfaces. Steel pitons were driven into rock cracks with abandon which destroyed many climbing routes. Higher technology came only after much destruction took place and popularity rose. Trees are fragile- much more so than rock. Standards needed to be put in place from the beginning to protect the trees being climbed. Recognized recreational tree climbing standards started through TCI. Now I move to another issue.

When you charge money for tree climbing you open yourself up to numerous liabilities. If someone gets hurt, there is going to be a lawsuit whether it is your fault or not. The defendant (instructor) must have a good defense. They need to prove they have practiced good standards and have records of good training. This is where having a recognized organization that has been in existence for years can be a valuable asset. If it is your word against the lawyers your case will be thin indeed.

I am an arborist by profession. I’m a tree hugger from my youth that became a tree doctor. My passion is tree climbing. I derive great joy from sharing my passion with others.

TCI, Treeclimbing USA, and a few others have made tree climbing a business. We have overhead, like insurance and equipment costs, that require us to make money. We also have living expenses to meet. I am not aware of what advantage it would be for us as an organization to “give our standards away.” Do other schools give away detailed curriculum information for others to use as they see fit? Would someone then use this information to turn around and say “TCI created them in the first place” if they ran into trouble, like a law suit? How would WE know if someone indeed used our standards if a defense issue came up and they had not been through our programs? Simple tree climbing becomes another thing when you charge money for it or become accountable in a court of law for who you say you are.

So lets talk some more on these issues. How about some more viewpoints?

Rescueman; You continue to miss the point and continue to look at this issue from a negitive perspective. Peter can speak for himself which he just has and did so from the heart and from years of experience. Is that which he said offensive to you? I would hope not, nor that that Dan or I said earlier, however I and perhaps Dan did offend you. So what is your beef? Other than you have made judgements about us and know little to nothing about either of us. Come to Nebraska in September and meet us all. As to your credentials I see you are it appears quite skilled. I take it that you learned from staff that was more qualified or at least equally qualified in the areas that you mentioned so that you could gain from their knowledge and learn from their experiences. I note you left out tree climbing. Are you interested in implimenting a tree climbing program where you will be responsible for others? are youi interested in tree climbing as an activity for your self enjoyment? If for the latter have at it and have safe climbs. If your purpose is the former than utilize some common sense and get trained by whomever. There are many qualified instructors of all manner of vertical programs and endeavors but you don't get a sea captains license to learn how to fly a plane. So chose someone in the tree climbing industry that can most benifit you, your staff and most of all your clients. As Robert that has been the point of this line of discussion all along; Climbing with Others in a safe and as controlled environment as possible. Until; Safety in and for the trees worlkdwide! Abe

Instruction—how much and from whom?
I have heard and read enough about TCI to believe that they offer first-rate instruction, and that a person is pretty doggoned competent and safe to climb after completing the basic course. I have said that even when I am at the stage where I feel quite competent, and when I have the opportunity, I still probably will take the course just to “be sure” of my competency.

Despite the excellent mentoring I receive from Jay (“kernsloth”); plus my studying (Jepson’s The Tree Climber’s Companion, Flowers’s Recreational Tree Climbing, Smith and Padgett’s On Rope, the ArboristSite forum, much manufacturer’s literature, and a lot more); practicing techniques “low and slow” in my back yard; etc., I still really don’t have a good idea of the scope of what I should know.

Just what is it that I don’t know that I really should know before I go off in the woods with only a safety person (my wife) on the ground? How competent does my current capability make me? How can I rate myself? How do I find these things out? As Clint Eastwood’s “Dirty Harry” said, “A man’s gotta know his limitations.”

What can TCI do to help us all be better climbers?
One thing TCI could do to serve the recreational climbing fraternity is to publish what they believe a “competent” (whatever that really means) climber should be able to do. This probably would be exactly what they teach for their basic course.

This actually seems like a good business opportunity for someone(s) who knows the hobby, knows how to write, and knows how to instruct. Certainly, TCI could produce such a manual. I have no doubt but that they have their course plan quite well tuned by now. All it should take is a good writer (and a publisher, and some money, and . . .).

Is it reasonable for TCI to publish an hour-by-hour outline of what will be presented at their trainings? This would include specifically what knots, what techniques, what heights, what equipment, etc.—behavioral objectives Such a document would point out to me what should be expected of me and what I do and don’t know. I’d like to know that. Would such information be of use to you?

What would it be worth to you to have such a guide? It seems to me that this would be of value to almost all of us (except perhaps those who believe they really do know it all already (some of whom actually do)). Yes, yes, you almost assuredly can’t become a really good climber just by reading a book, but such a book could prove invaluable to the many out here who can’t drop everything and go to Atlanta next week . . . or maybe ever.

What allows a group to set standards?
In response to the question as to what right TCI has to set itself up as the accrediting group for recreational climbers, I would note that there are very few accrediting organizations in any field that achieved that status by divine right—they just did it. Do you think that, for example, the AMA began some other way? I have been a member of more that just a few professional accrediting organizations over the years, and they were what they were simply because they upheld professionalism and high standards (including ethical standards, by the way).

It needn’t be the first group on the scene: I know of several who came about long after there already was a good accrediting organization; they had some new ideas, maybe new techniques, etc. How many different groups can grant you a black belt in Aikido? How about certify you as a psychotherapist? What about university accreditation for Electrical Engineering? There are many different accrediting organizations for a given field, and they exist (usually) because they do a good job and have the respect of the practitioners in the field.

So why does TCI have the “right” to do this? Well, just because they say so and almost all of us happen to agree. When they start “accrediting” someone as a “senior master climber” simply because they can tie a beer knot, we’ll turn our backs on them. Similarly, when they require that one must demonstrate the ability to body thrust 100 feet in one minute and rescue a screaming and kicking Abe Winters, we’ll think that a little too stringent and look elsewhere.

If one thinks that TCI is not doing a good job, maybe a way to correct that would be to communicate the specific objection directly to them . . . maybe even with a specific suggestion as to how to effect an improvement. Ya think?

We will be able to “climb higher” with a strong and well respected organization.

We all have something to contribute.
Some people sometimes are not very tactful or considerate when they post comments. Despite the anger in those comments, there usually is some value—it just may take counting to ten a few times to get to it. They may have something valuable to add, even though they may not be fun to be around and play with . . . maybe not even safe to climb with unless we do it exactly their way. We just have to stick with them and try not to let them shut us down with their negativity and argumentative manner.

Hello, all.

I appreciate Robert taking himself out of the argument by pointing out that he was not personally offended and does not teach tree climbing. God knows that Abe Winters can be offensive but I don't think he was in this case. I'm not amused by those without a dog in this fight expressing righteous indignation over Abe Winters' alleged trespasses against the rest of the tree climbing community. My experience is that righteous indignation over other's trespasses is generally a smokescreen for one's own inadequacies. But, then, I could be wrong.

I would prefer, instead, to hear from other tree climbing instructors who have learned and teach outside the TCI model. How about it folks, were you offended in any way over Abe's rant over making sure folks who are teaching and facilitating are doing so safely? We'd love to hear from you rather than self appointed watchdogs of the tree climbing public decency.

I went back and looked at Abe's original message and couldn't find anyplace he said that TCI was the ONLY source of instruction that people should utilize. He did come off on the side of safety and yes, he did give the impression that he felt that TCI and TCUSA's programs are the best around. I would expect nothing less. I'm sure that Robert would give the same impression of the services that he offers.

I would urge everyone who is an instructor, facilitator or program chairman to speak for themselves and let the tree climbing community know if you are EVER offended by anything someone on this board does or says. If I'm not mistaken, that's the purpose of this board.

As for me, everyone is welcome to refrain from being indignant over my being offended, real or imagined. I already have too many polititicians doing that for me and frankly, I'm tired of it.

Rod Justice

whilst this all makes fascinating reading, could someone tell me what the heck proselytizing means

pros·e·ly·tize     

1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.

2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.

I doubt the religious one applies but you never know with some people.

For some reason, the fact that Abe thinks his service is a good one and that people should be concerned about taking training from someone who emphasizes safety has everyone's adrenal glands fluttering. I thought safety was his main point, not a sales pitch. Others apparently thought otherwise and were mightily upset, hence the proselytizing remark.

Rod Justice

thanks for that.
whatever happened to good olde english

Is there anyone reading this thread willing to respond that is currently teaching recreational tree climbing that is not TCI trained? Do you dare jump into this fray? My hat is off to you if you take the challenge. You even might set off a tree-quake with the commotion you could start.

Very interesting conversation. I will leave my personal opinions out, but will offer some insight regarding setting of standards.

NIMBY means, Not In My BackYard. This is a common cry of people who move into an area of large housing growth and instantly want to stop all further development. After all, "I moved here because of the quaint little...(fill in your own adjective)". Now everyone wants to live here and that will ruin the place. Who's right? depends which side of the fence that you are on. I see parallels to treeclimbing. Those of us "on the inside" want to limit (or at least control) the people wanting in.

There are many reasons for this. If irresponsible climbing occurs with injuries, tree damage, etc. we risk losing all access to the canopy. There is concern for personal safety. There is also an income motive for some.

Standards are set a variety of ways. One way is by consensus. The Treeclimber's Coalition is looking to help build this consensus. In order to reach consensus we must first understand each other's interests, feelings, and experience. This is by far the hardest thing to do. You do not have to agree with each other's opinion, but must understand it. It is only by understanding that WE can work together to construct something that meets ALL of our needs.


Another standard can be set by applying existing standards to our arena. ANSI Z133.1 is an example. While not 100% applicable, you can bet if you are climbing for money and are unfortunate to have to speak to a plaintiff's attorney you will be questioned as to the standards in that text. Since no entity has yet published standards for Recreational Tree Climbing, none can be referenced.

Another standard is what an expert says. Surely, Peter would qualify. But so might many others. My point is that standard is not one person, text, or entity. Standards are researched, written, agreed to, and adopted by the community as a standard. Standards by their very nature are vague and provide an overview and minimal performance.

In conclusion, while Abram is proposing that training only happen one way, that is his opinion, and not a standard.

I am concerned that consensus on standards will be a huge challenge in an environment that seeks to find the problems and not the solutions. In addition, the treeclimbers I know are a pretty free spirited group. They would much rather go climb a tree than sit at a keyboard.

As unbiased as I can be,

Robbity Bob
www.arborquest.org