ACP- Carabiners

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126133 by treeman
ACP- Carabiners was created by treeman
It wasn’t long ago when carabiners were not recognized by ANSI for tree climbing use. Now they are. Praise the Lord!

So what is a standard for life support carabiners? Locking, yes? How many actions? We have single action (screw down or screw up!), double action, and triple action varieties. Ball lock, barrel lock, and maybe other types of which I do not know about.

What about non-locking carabiners? Would you ever choose to hang with one? What standard would you go by?

What about snaps? Do recreational climbers use snaps? What kind should be used? Should the only guide for snap use be in its strength rating?

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126141 by leon123
Replied by leon123 on topic ACP- Carabiners
Peter, I believe that double locking and triple action mean essentially the same thing. The Sherrill catalog clarifies (or does it confuse it?) by calling these positive locking. These carabiners make two motions when automatically locking, for example the barrell slides down and twists clockwise. It takes three "actions" to open one of these (push up, twist counterclockwise, pull back the gate). The ball lock and barrell locks both fall into this category, as well as other more obscure mechanisms.


There are only two types of snap mechanism that I am aware of: locking and non-locking.


My personal opinion is that when used for life support, carabiners should be double locking, snaps should be locking, and both should be rated to a minimum of 22kn.

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126146 by Tom Dunlap
Replied by Tom Dunlap on topic ACP- Carabiners
Double or auto locking are good terms. Why even consider using screw gate biners?

Strong limbs and single ropes!
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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126152 by Patrick
Replied by Patrick on topic Screw gates
Screw gates can and are being used safely by some tree climbers and I know of at least one camp that uses some screw gate biners for its tree climbing program. They have a rigorous policy of doing a "gate check" with ALL climbers, whether they are using screw gates or double locking. They do the "gate check" before and during a program, and it ends up being part of the mindset of the climbing participants.
When I purchased my own equipment, I chose to buy double locking biners, primarily because they are faster. But I certainly would have felt OK about buying screw gate biners from a safety standpoint. I have to do a gate check with my double locking biners, anyway.

Patrick

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126155 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Double VS/ Triple action carabiners.
I have had a couple occurrences (years ago when double action carabiners were state of the art) when a branch rubbed against the barrel and the gate opened. It was a shocking experience to look down and see the gate open with a branch inside. This was during my tree working days, when contorted positions were common.

So should a triple action carabiner be advised for main life support? What should be said about manual screw locks? Gate Check! We still use a “gate check” at the TCI school so new students will look at their main tie ins from time to time.

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Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126157 by Tom Dunlap
Replied by Tom Dunlap on topic ACP- Carabiners
Checking gates should always be a normal thing. No question.

Unless I can read a study that shows that screw gate biners are better than double acting I'm not going to even consider screw gates for any climber support. I have used them occasionally for hanging my portaledge. In this application the biner is hung, checked and things don't change. Much different application than in a climbing system.

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126160 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic The first auto locking carabiners.
I was thinking about the first auto lockers(double action) - Wales I think. The twist and push gate versus the new push button, twist, then open gate (triple action). I am not much of a fan for manual lockers now, except possibly accessory uses.

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126161 by rocknroll
Replied by rocknroll on topic Biners and links
I LIKE the screw links for the new climbers, it is not something they have seen especially the deltas, so they don't mess with them. Most have seen biners and a concept hopw they work CMC rescue LIKES the screw links for the non tri-loading factor. Also the visual look at the links can be spotted like a miss tyed knot. CMC rescue only uses screw gate biners, as safety checks are DRILLED into your whole safety factor. Auto lockers I like and use but gate check-check is a must for any system no matter what you use. I have seen and thrown away both screw gate and auto lockers when they don't work right. I have seen some auto lockers not lock right so check-check is must with the also.

check-check

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126168 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic ACP- Carabiners
The ropes course I work on uses screw lockers almost exclusively and I hate it. We also do a very thorough check before the climbers leave the ground, but I've had campers come back down with gates unlocked! The obstacles they face on the ropes course are not much different than the branches we climb. I avoid screw lockers at all costs.

Snaphooks- yes, rec climbers use them. I use them, at least. But again, I am a tree worker/rec climber hybrid, so maybe I don't count. But they should definately be allowed, as they are quite safe.

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126173 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Worker/rec climber hybrid. Can I steal that?
I love language; especially tree climbing language. Can I steal that term? Maybe "climber hybrid" for short?

Those alloy locking snaps feel good in the hands and are safe. I believe the steel version is approved by the American Dental Association (smile when you throw). It is said you can cap one off if you bang your teeth. I have had that experience with a beloved alloy carabiner once.

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Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126174 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic RocknRoll. More please.
Tell us more about the visual look of a screw link. I personally like the feel of the machine tapered edges but I think you are seeing something I do not see. Please explain.

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Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126175 by rocknroll
Replied by rocknroll on topic screw links
I am just talking about the delta and oval screw links. During checks the visual of the screw collar being all the way over the threads is just another safety factor as well as the hands on.
We had one screw link get tight but a visual check showed the threads were not covered by the collar. It must have had a piece of TREE in the threads. :D

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126176 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Speaking of screw links.
RocknRoll-Thanks for that clarification. How about this saying- "See threads- You's deads"! So here is a question along that line.

Should a wrench be used to screw down the screw link? Lock it down, so to speak. I think Sherrill catalog says do it (or is he talking about the clevis?). What do you all think about that? Has anyone seen a screw link, be it delta or oval, unscrew itself?

Should this be a usage standard? The old addage- "screw down so you don't screw up."

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Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126177 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic ACP- Carabiners
In my use, a screw link that will be opened later that day does not get wrenched. If it's a more permanent attachment, it get's the pliers (or allen wrench, etc)

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126178 by leon123
Replied by leon123 on topic ACP- Carabiners
I have never had a screw link come unscrewed once tightened, even when only hand tight. For long term use I do use a wrench on them, though. I feel that they are safe to use as attachment points.

Screw gate carabiners are another story. When I started climbing that's what I used and I was always have to rescrew them every so often while I was working up in the tree.

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