ACP- Saddles

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126131 by treeman
ACP- Saddles was created by treeman
What exactly is a “Type II” saddle belt as described in ANSI A10.14? Is this a commercial saddle? I can’t imagine recreational tree climbers going for clunky work harnesses. What should be a recreational standard?

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126136 by moss
Replied by moss on topic ACP- Saddles
A rec saddle should meet defined strength requirements on all straps and closures. Should (minimally) close around the waist/trunk and legs. Should safely support a climber in all positions (vertical, horizontal, inverted). Should be designed to minimize the potential for harness hang syndrome (does not constrict blood flow to legs). Or at least the guidelines should say something about harness hang syndrome and how to avoid it.

Beyond the basic strength and safety issues the matter of comfort is up to the climber. If someone wants to climb on a saddle made from webbing that is their choice. What about rock climbing saddles, we know they are very uncomfortable for tree climbing. Are they considered structurally sound enough to climb trees on a regular basis?

I've seen a climber use an improvised saddle that had excellent strength and comfort (modified bow hunter's seat). What about homemade or improvised saddles? If they meet strength and safety standards for support and inversion they should be ok.
-moss

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126137 by 3climbr
Replied by 3climbr on topic overnight harnesses
I'm curious about harnesses for sleeping in the tree hammock. I had a climber come up last weekend and sleep in an Oak. He used a less-than-full harness for night time. What would people recommend for a practice?

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126139 by jimw
Replied by jimw on topic ACP- Saddles
Not infrequently, I see comments indicating that HHS is a result of constricted blood flow.

The several articles I have read about HHS say that no one is really sure of the root cause(s). It does seem certain, though, that blood pooling in the legs (thus severely lessening that available for the heart to pump) is a cause. Such pooling easily can occur with NO constriction.

***I don't know any more than what I've read in 8 or 10 places--I want to be clear about that.*** Yet almost all the literature about HHS says the same thing.

The literature on the vaso-vagal response talks about how the heart can almost tie itself in knots in attempting to pump enough blood when the volume of blood available to it is low. I would think that there a connection here.

Be very clear that HHS occurs quickly and is deadly. If *proper* rescue is not performed, the rescue itself can cause death where it might not have happened.

We all owe it to ourselves (and our climbing partners) to be as educated as we can about this very real danger.

Question: What do "professional" aerial rescuers have to say about this subject? Robert--are you out there? Can you tell us?

Somebody, please.

Peace.

Jim

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126147 by Tom Dunlap
Replied by Tom Dunlap on topic ACP- Saddles
Google "type II climbing harness" or some variation.

when I go up to sleep I wear my mountaineering harness under my tree saddle. When I get to my portaledge I safety-in and transfer to my in-tree system. "then I shed my tree saddle and get onto the ledge.

Strong limbs and single ropes!
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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126170 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic ACP- Saddles

Originally posted by 3CLIMBR
I'm curious about harnesses for sleeping in the tree hammock. I had a climber come up last weekend and sleep in an Oak. He used a less-than-full harness for night time. What would people recommend for a practice?


That was me!!!! I call it a sleep harness. It was just a webbing sling that goes around the waist, through the crotch, and clipped in the front. Comfy to sleep in, and painful to hang in (I've done it on several occasions).

So for that- strength was there, but I'd sure hate to take a fall in it!

I've climbed with rock climbing harness underneath the tree harness, then get up there, clip to the rock harness and take off the tree harness. That wasn't bad at all and that harness is designed to fall into.

love
nick

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126172 by treeman
Replied by treeman on topic Double harness. Never thought of that!
What a great idea, Tom and Nick! A harness under a harness. That's a new concept to me. Makes sense. Changing harness for night sleep has always made me nervous, especially on a PortaLedge center hung rig. It made for certain tight muscle groups to the sound of clanking carabiners.

Waving from a treetop,
Peter Treeman Jenkins

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126190 by icabod
Replied by icabod on topic COMPARTMENTALIZATION
Important points brought up by Jim W, without comment... well here I go again.
Compartmentalization must be avoided at all cost. Climbers should be advised of the dangers of pooling blood, and the contribution that a poor harness (or even the best of harnesses in the worst of conditions) can have in this dangerous health condition. We should take this into consideration in writting our standards, but again, we should be cautious to not limit the use of improvised harnesses and lighterweight harnesses (such as rock harnesses) when climbing will not involve long periods of suspension.

I too climb with a rock harness beneath my Ness saddle while in my hammock. Gymnastics ensue during the change out period, but the safety is there.

Again the following is suggested verbage

==START OF CLIP==
All climbing saddles must be constructed of materials that have a minimum breaking strenght of 5000#, or be tested to show compliance with ANSI A10.14-1991. --EDITORS NOTE-- this will allow folks to use swiss seats, or other inprovised harnesses in appropriate situations (such as wilderness climbs with ladder climbing, and emergency rescue operations, as long as the solution is created using load rated rope or harness)--END NOTE--
Care should be exercised in selection of PPE, especially saddles or harnesses, to take into consideration the amount of time the climber may be suspended. Climbing operations that require periods of time that exceed 1/2 of one hour should indicate the use of a purpose designed harness/saddle to help prevent pooling of blood in the legs.

==END OF CLIP==

Climb Safe!
Icabod

Cam "Icabod" Taylor

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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #126198 by leon123
Replied by leon123 on topic ACP- Saddles
Very good points there, Icabod. I know very little about suspension trauma. It may very well be something that we should mention.

I also agree that flexibility in harness materials should discussed. We could recommend the use of an ANSI harness, but mention the acceptable use of alternative materials, like you did.

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