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20 years 7 months ago - 20 years 7 months ago #123231 by Bradley Ford
False crotch versus rope saver was created by Bradley Ford
Do you prefer a false crotch like this


(from http://www.treeclimbing.it/tecniche/images/ffterra3.jpg)

or a rope saver like this


(from http://www.newtribe.com/Images/ropesleeve.JPG)

? Is your preference situationally dependent? Please explain.

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20 years 7 months ago - 20 years 7 months ago #123207 by Patrick
Replied by Patrick on topic friction
It does significantly reduce friction at the TIP, but then the friction at your knot is increased, in comparison to the rope saver (which has lower knot friction, but higher TIP friction). So, depending on what knot system you use, the false crotch may have more potential for more wear and tear at your knot, or be harder to move the knot.

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20 years 7 months ago - 20 years 7 months ago #123162 by rtrem12
Replied by rtrem12 on topic rope saver
I think the rope saver actually has less friction than the FC. I always* (almost) us a friction saver, leather most times. I have only used a FC one time.

My reason for thinking the rope saver has less friction is because the rope makes a "gentle" curve over the crotch. With the FC, the rope makes a 180 degree turn in the matter of an inch or so. The inside of my leather tree saver is sort of "glazed" so the rope slides quite easily.

Not sure if it's right, but hey, it works for me.

bob

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20 years 7 months ago - 20 years 7 months ago #123133 by harrywbarnhurst
Replied by harrywbarnhurst on topic
Like Bob I almost always use a rope sleeve. I have two of the Dan House Rope Sleeves and one Leather Sleeve. The House sleeves definitely cuts down the friction at the crotch the most ,but the leather also works fine. When I first saw pictures of the leather sleeve, I wondered how the leather would be kept from bunching up, not knowing how thick the leather is. I have no problem setting the leather sleeve and there is definitely no bunching. The leather also takes the sometimes smaller diameter branches better, so I actually use a combination of the two. If I am not using a sleeve I descend rather slowly, even being told that I am missing out on all the fun of rapelling quickly. I have seen, on some of my trees, the wear of the bark that the friction produces and that is definitely contrary to my feeling for the trees.

I wish everyone a fantastic, safe, and peace filled Holiday Season. Be well all!!!!

In Peace,

Legolas

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20 years 7 months ago - 20 years 7 months ago #123006 by Bradley Ford
Replied by Bradley Ford on topic some questions
If you could choose almost no friction or some friction at your tie in point, which would you choose and why?

Which (rope saver or false crotch) is quicker and/or easier to install and retrieve?

If you were to own only one rope saver, what type (e.g. leather or Dan House) would you have? Why?

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20 years 7 months ago - 20 years 7 months ago #123003 by harrywbarnhurst
Replied by harrywbarnhurst on topic
Bradley,

As I said in an earlier post, I use the rope sleeve style, both leather and the Dan House flexible conduit style and both are equally easy to set.

1. Get your throwline set in place.
2. Slide the Rope Sleeve onto your climbing rope.
3. Attach your climbing rope to the throwline.
4. Pull up your climbing rope (I usually hold the sleeve under my arm as the rope goes up until I nearly have what will be the working end back in my hands).
5. Tie a slip knot so the downward force from the sleeve will be stopped by the knot.
6. Continue to pull the throwline or working end of the climbing rope until the sleeve reaches the crotch. With a slight pull (most of the time) the sleeve slides into place. Now pull down on the both sides of the rope to release the slip knot and everything is set. Occasionally I have overshot the crotch with the sleeve (pulled it too far) and I just needed to tie a second slip knot in the other direction to set it right. So far I haven't had to go through that a third time.
To retrieve the sleeve and rope I will tie a slip knot to remove the sleeve from the crotch and give me a controlled descent. I don't think this is needed for the leather sleeve but I don't want the House Sleeve banging into anything on the way down.

As I said I use both leather and conduit type and have not had any problems with either personally. I did see an example of one of the conduit types that had split and that concerned me a little because the metal that was exposed was pretty sharp and I would not want my climbing rope to be subjected to that. I think this sleeve may have been used for a branch that was a smaller diameter than it it designed for and it separated the spiral of the conduit.

I personally do like the ease in which the rope slides at the tie in point and am not sure if that friction loss is transferred to my Blakes hitch as I heard some say. My reason for saying this is that when I am advancing my Blakes hitch the rest of the rope is stationary as I am standing in my foot loop.

As I also said before I can't help with the false crotch "ease" of setup bacause I have never used one.

I hope that this helps you in your decision.

Have a great Day!!!!

In Peace,

Legolas

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20 years 7 months ago - 20 years 7 months ago #122981 by josh123
Replied by josh123 on topic False Crotch
This summer I began using a homemade false croth every time I set a rope. Mine is made from a sewn runner, a mallion rapide screw link with CMI pulley, and a William Ball auto locking biner. It works great, especially with the pulley. However, the one major drawback I've experienced is that before descending, I have to make sure to remember to tie my throwline onto the false crotch to control its descent while retrieving it from the ground. Otherwise, I risk damaging some or all of the pieces. A damaged pulley or biner is as good as trash. With a conduit or leather sleeve, this is not a concern.

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20 years 6 months ago - 20 years 6 months ago #122917 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic
What techniques or devices are people using to retrieve their friction savers?

I know most people using the RING/ring friction saver just tie a knot on the end that goes through the big ring and gets caught in the little ring.

What else is there?

love
nick

Would you like a lanyard spliced up, or anything else for that matter??? Give me a call- 323-384-7770 or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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20 years 5 months ago - 20 years 5 months ago #123322 by Bradley Ford
Replied by Bradley Ford on topic

Originally posted by Bradley Ford
If you were to own only one rope saver, what type (e.g. leather or Dan House) would you have? Why?

A false crotch with big and little rings offers more rigging possibilities than a rope sleeve.

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20 years 5 months ago - 20 years 5 months ago #123323 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic
I like the idea of a leather one, simply because I could make one myself. But I hear that the Dan House sleeves are quite nice, too.

Personally, I sometimes use a ring/RING friction saver. Usually now I use one where there is only one small pulley....no ring. Super smooth.

love
nick

Would you like a lanyard spliced up, or anything else for that matter??? Give me a call- 323-384-7770 or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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20 years 5 months ago - 20 years 5 months ago #123324 by icabod
Replied by icabod on topic Rope Sleeve
I made my own rope sleeve to Dan House's specs. It works great. Plus before I got a bag with an internal frame it worked well to stiffen up the back of the pack.

As far as the ring Ring types I will never be comfortable with my rope running over shuch a tight radius, even the ones with the pulley make me twitch...

Cam "Icabod" Taylor

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19 years 9 months ago - 19 years 9 months ago #123994 by Bradley Ford
Replied by Bradley Ford on topic

Originally posted by Bradley Ford
If you could choose almost no friction or some friction at your tie in point, which would you choose and why?

Which (rope saver or false crotch) is quicker and/or easier to install and retrieve?

More friction at the TIP reduces the load and therefore the "bite" at your hitch. Both the false crotch and the rope saver reduce friction; I think the friction with a false crotch is slightly more consistent than with a rope saver.

I think the rope saver is easier to both install and retrieve.

When retrieving a false crotch, I've controlled its descent by:
  1. (before installation) tying a throwline just above the large ring and dealing with the extra line in the tree during ascent and descent
  2. (while in the tree) climbing to my TIP and tying a throwline just above the large ring and dealing with the extra line during descent
  3. (during retrieval) tying a throwline to the stopper knot used to retrieve the false crotch--this requires the throwline to be 3 times as long as the TIP is high

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19 years 5 months ago - 19 years 5 months ago #124773 by nickfromwi
Replied by nickfromwi on topic
For those of you that are into making your own friction saver, I showed what I consider to be a neat knot that is good for attaching rings.

Tell me what you think!

Friction Saver Thread

There are a bunch of photos, then at the end there's a video, too.

I'd like to know what y'all think of the knot. I'm also trying to figure out what the heck it's called.

Do you see any potential problems with the knot?

love
nick

Would you like a lanyard spliced up, or anything else for that matter??? Give me a call- 323-384-7770 or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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19 years 5 months ago - 19 years 5 months ago #124761 by icabod
Replied by icabod on topic Nice knot
FAB!

That is sweet Nick.

Hey we have the Icabod Snag, so you might as well just get a big head like me and name that knot.

At least name it for it's application.

Icabod

Cam "Icabod" Taylor

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19 years 5 months ago - 19 years 5 months ago #124785 by oldtimer
Replied by oldtimer on topic Friction Saver Options
Bradley,
Add me to those that Use the Dan House type of friction safer while climbing.
I tried the alternative methods but for me it is easier to install the electrical conduit saver during the original tree entry.
The pictures from the Site in Italy are great specially some of the demos for friction knots and other info. Very informative stuff there. By the way he e-mailed me last week informing me of the upcomming climbing classes and sent some pictures and they are great. I wish I could go to Italy and climb some of those places. Some of the palaces he maintains are very luxurious.

Oldtimer

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