New Tribe's revised Grapnel design

I've been using New Tribe's revised Grapnel for a couple of months now. I can't restrain myself, it is excellent! Percentage of grabs per attempts is waayy up compared to a conventional grapple shape. Yesterday I became even more convinced. I was having a particularly tough time setting a line in a big white pine, ie: there is so much sap coming off the bumper crop of cones this year that it's really tough to get a bag to come down after a throw through the crown. On my fifth attempt to get a branch (the other four throws were on target but no dice getting drop) I finally got the bag to come down but I had to do some work to move the line closer in to the tree while I was doing that the line became somewhat more difficult to move. I loaded up the bag with two 12oz bags and started hauling them up, duh! I was a little tired in the high heat and humidity and missed the basic rule: don't pull a bag up if it won't move down on its own. Before my brain kicked back in the two bags were up 25 ft.

To solve I clipped the Grapnel on to the bottom loop of an 8 oz throw bag (with throwline attached) and started tossing it at the line above the 2 bags. Kind of a tough target as you can imagine. First throw missed, second throw hit and immediately grabbed and held, game over.

Thanks are due to Michael Spraggon who is the one who first suggested the new design to New Tribe.
-moss

I have a blue one that I love. I can't imagine it getting any better...but from what I'm hearing, the yellow one IS better. I may have to upgrade.

On a silly note, I also need to get a different one because the other day I was doing a climb with a group of jewish kids. One of the kids looked at the blue grapnel and said, "why do you have a swastika hanging from you?"

That was slightly awkward!

love
nick

nickfromwi wrote:

I have a blue one that I love. I can't imagine it getting any better...but from what I'm hearing, the yellow one IS better. I may have to upgrade.

On a silly note, I also need to get a different one because the other day I was doing a climb with a group of jewish kids. One of the kids looked at the blue grapnel and said, "why do you have a swastika hanging from you?"

That was slightly awkward!

love
nick

I've got the yellow one, never did try the blue version to compare.

Good educational moment "Did you know it's an ancient symbol used by Native Americans and other cultures? Unfortunately it was co-opted by the Nazis."

I'll have have to check the yellow one and see if the offending symbol is still visible.
-moss

moss wrote:

Kind of a tough target as you can imagine. First throw missed, second throw hit and immediately grabbed and held, game over.

Wow. We'll have to get you a suit with a cape and mask.

Born and raised in Grants Pass, OR. Moved away years ago, but back visiting family so I decided to drop in on New Tribe yesterday while I was here.

And.....I picked up a yellow grapple. In fact, I picked up two -- one for my climbing buddy. I've been using the blue one for awhile and thought that it was just awesome. We'll have to see how the yellow compares later this morning. And then we'll have to see what to do with 'lil blue.

Ok, so right now the jury is still out. I found the new grapnel grabs the line easier. But the blue one would slide down the end of my lanyard and catch the eye splice. The yella one has slightly bigger hooks that slide over the eye splice so I need to put a 'biner on it first. Plus the fact that it hooks the rope easier means it hooks branches and such easier on an errant throw.

The other part of my story was a new climb line. I only brought my 45' double ended lanyard to play around in trees with while here on vacation. But decided to climb something a bit taller while here and so also bought a new climb line from NT. The fly was actually quite good. Of course I had almost no gear except for my saddle and an extra carabiner. But it worked well with a Blake's. Looking forward to trying it out further.

I'm pleased to hear that my grapnel design is working 'in the field' When I first decided to get a grapnel I thought I would make one from a coathanger. As soon as a saw it swing past my dangling line I realised that it needed to have the arms twisted to catch the line more effectively.

I've since redesigned the grapnel to be even more effective, including improvements to it's attachment to the line, but New Tribe have not adopted it as yet.

Out of interest: I was once shocked to find an Indian girl I used to know, drawing swastikas of a sheet of paper. I subsequently learned that the swastika is actually a good luck symbol from the ancient Indian subcontinent. Unfortunately the Nazis thought it was connected with the origins of the 'Arayan' race and adopted it for their sinister beliefs. I certainly didn't intentionally set out to design a swastika-shaped grapnel. The similarity is purely a coincidence!

Michael

michaeljspraggon wrote:

... including improvements to it's attachment to the line, ...

Don't leave us hanging!!!!

How could it be better than a hole?

love
nick

nickfromwi wrote:

michaeljspraggon wrote:

... including improvements to it's attachment to the line, ...

Don't leave us hanging!!!!

How could it be better than a hole?

love
nick

How about an almost closed hole (hook) so it's easy to take it off the line if you girthed it to attach. Or you can slide the knot off if you use a double overhand noose to secure.
-moss

Good idea about the almost closed hook, Moss but my attachment method very different to that; in fact the whole grapnel design is now very different to what's gone before.

In view of my present financial situation (living off my savings while trying to compose an album) I'm now a bit reticent about giving away my ideas until I look into the possibility of getting a patent and licensing agreement (although I don't know whether the potential sales of this would make the time and costs worthwhile). I did respectfully ask NewTribe whether they would consider giving me a share of any profits they made from sales of my design but they didn't reply.

Michael

michaeljspraggon wrote:

In view of my present financial situation (living off my savings while trying to compose an album) I'm now a bit reticent about giving away my ideas until I look into the possibility of getting a patent and licensing agreement (although I don't know whether the potential sales of this would make the time and costs worthwhile).

I've applied for some patents through work, and if it makes you feel any better doing it out of your own pocket would cost more than you would probably ever see from the limited market for this grapnel. The process usually takes a lot of time, and I think the average patent costs about $10k or more by the time you jump through all of the hoops. The patent office almost always rejects your first application, and then you need to fight to prove why your idea is original and patent worthy. It can be difficult to accomplish without some legal advice.

As for Newtribe, they are a great company, but they are operating at a very low profit margin and they seem to put all the money back into the company or the employees I think. I doubt they are trying to shaft you in any way. However, a response would have been nice. I've been less than excited about the response when I've emailed them asking for anything out of the norm.

All that aside, the design is good and I hope you at least get some satisfaction from knowing you were able to improve the experience of retrieving lines for numerous climbers out there.

moss wrote:

How about an almost closed hole (hook) so it's easy to take it off the line if you girthed it to attach. Or you can slide the knot off if you use a double overhand noose to secure.
-moss

What about just cutting a slot in the ring to make a hook if you want one? I think the ring is thick to make a strong enough hook.

I certainly am pleased that tree climbers are actually using my design and benefitting from it - that's why I decided to give the design to New Tribe in the first place!

Michael

I've been thinking quite a bit about the issue of our inventions and the high cost of the patent process. I've decided to look at it this way...

It's my understanding that if you (or I) publicizes and clearly documents an invention or concept, that we've established "prior use" or "prior art" as they say in the legal world. When prior use of an invention is established, no one else can patent it. Again, would need feedback from a patent lawyer but that's my understanding from closely reading patents lately.

I think the point is, none of us wants to be excluded from having the right to invent, design, manufacture and sell anything we come up with. Getting a patent creates exclusivity, but at a very high financial cost and in the tree climbing community it can actually suppress innovation. Case in point is the Big Shot patent that Sherrill Tree holds. The entire concept of a large sling shot on a pole is patented. This forced New Tribe to pull Jeff Newman's excellent Sidewinder slingshot from their retail offerings.

So... for devices that I make and may perhaps wish to manufacture and sell some day, I recognize that the projected sales would never cover legal costs related to securing a patent. Therefore I clearly and publicly establish prior use. If I decide to market that invention or device I'm free to do so. If someone else wants to copycat they'll have to compete against me, the originator of the concept. I don't mind that at all. What I would mind is that if some took my idea, patented it and then tried to prevent me from marketing my own idea.

That's why I think documenting prior use of your idea is so important, it gives you the freedom to sell your device without fear that someone will threaten you with a lawsuit.
-moss

I think Moss has a good approach.

As a slight aside: The way I understand patent process history is that it was set up as a way to encourage public disclosure of inventions so that they could lead to further inventions and improvements for the benefit of society. The part about exclusive rights was put in there to keep people from keeping their inventions secret.