I browsed through this message board and couldn't find anything on the topic! So I thought I would ask here, if someone has a link please share! I've read in a few places that DRT is good for about a 50ft or so ascent, and that SRT should be use (and mechanical ascenders) above 50ft. For a few reasons I would assume; easeir ascent being the main reason. Is this bogus? i.e. rhetoric spit out by climbing campanies to get you to buy their stuff? Thanks for all replies!

mateo

Mateo
The differences that you mentioned about SRT and DRT are correct. You will have to develop your personal preferences according to the type of climbing that you do the most and the amount of gear that you want to have.
Here is a link about personal preferences from Joe Maher:
www.treeclimbercoalition.org/TreeTalk/article.cfm?articleid=7

SRT is definitely faster for long climbs but DRT will allow you to reposition among branches after you are in the tree easier than with SRT. Climb High!

Ok. So you are suppose to use SRT 50+ ft, why? This is a little discussion a good friend of mine had the other day while I was going over gear to purchase I mentioned an ascending kit (there are a few options, obviously) and being the minimalist he is he says:

"aren't you getting arborist rope?"

I replied, "not technically (I'm going with either Poison Ivy or The FLY), but I'm getting a rope that can do arborist knots."

He replies "then you don't need ascenders, because there aren't any trees around here you might climb that are over 100 ft"

- We are in upstate NY, besides the fact that there are trees 100+ft here, why can't I just use blakes hitch on DRT for 50+ ft? I understand individual preference and style, and I get that, but is there some technical reason? I also do plan on using a combination of the two, DRT when in the tree, SRT for ascending, etc.

Thanks again!

mateo

When people say use SRT for 50+ I think they're referring to lowest branch that you can land on 50+ not the height of the tree. At least that's my understanding. If a 300 ft. redwood had branches starting at 30 ft. it would be reasonable to climb it DRT.

It's a pretty good amount of work to do straight up DRT ascent on or off the trunk over 50 ft. Under 50 ft works out fine DRT. There are other variables. Depending on the position of the tie-in (close to the trunk or further out on a branch) and favorable lean of the tree you can have a reasonably cushy climb to a 50 ft. first branch DRT. All depends on the tree and how you approach it.

If you haven't done any previous tree climbing with ropes it would make the most sense to start DRT to learn the fundamentals. You should be able to find plenty of trees with the first branch at 10, 20 or 30 ft., perfect for DRT. SRT is advanced technique that requires DRT climbing experience IMHO.

Where abouts upstate are you?
-moss

What is this 50 foot rule? I have heard of the 100 foot club but what's up with 50 ft.? I would go the Poison Ivy over the Fly. I have them both, but must admit a new preference to the PI. It is just easier to grip (11.7 mm). It hides much better than the Fly, though I must admit my favorite color is red.

SRT. I use it for climbs over 100 feet or if I am doing multiple high climbs (trim jobs) where I must make a number of faster high climbs in one day. I have both if not three systems to climb with when ever I go out. I use the RAD system for cat rescues.

SRT has many advantages but is a bit more gear intensive. Well...that's not really true. You can use friction hitches to do everything that a mechanical ascender does.

Just a nit to pick...there is SRT and then DdRT:Doubled Rope Technique which is the traditional way to climb trees.

Take a look at this thread on Treebuzz about the Tree Frog system on DdRT:

tinyurl.com/8sxjn

If you go to the Articles secion on TB you'll find my SRT article.

I use SRT on all trees for access, no matter what the height. But I'm a confirmed SRT climber. It is much more effecient.

Using DdRT and body thrusting into any tree takes too much energy and wear and tear on your body.

Get a copy of On Rope and learn about rope climbing, you'll learn a LOT!

I have witnessed other recreational tree climbers ascending over 100' with DRT and since I have a 200' fly I decided to give this a try and it worked great. There was not much difference between a 50' DRT climb and the 95' climb. I did have to seat my safety knots tighter as the weight of the down rope would start to untie them. (I also had to pre-rig the tree as my limit of throwing the throwline and throwbag is about 65', pre-rigging the tree took me about 1 1/2hrs. when done I came down had a Iced Mocha (yum) and then headed back up the 95' on DRT)

Was I tired - not at all - was there extra wear and tear on my body - not at all - did it take me awhile - yes.

But this is recreational tree climbing.

In my IBC (aka BTCC) I was taught to take my time and enjoy the climb and not to rush myself into the canopy - otherwise it would be like jumping "tree time zones". I imagine it like flying from New Jersey to California yeah you'll get there quicker but you would have missed the whole country.The other websites may promote quick climbing to get work done, but why rush up into the canopy for a relaxing climb. Seems to defeat the purpose? I guess it all depends on what your motive is.

My instructor actually had me carry an egg into the tree while I was climbing and performing my switch overs, his reason for this was to teach me to "climb gently". I continue to carry that lesson with me on every climb. (later I found it out it was a hardboiled egg - I guess he didn't want the yolk to be on him and his gear ) I recommend every one to try this - as you will walk away more mindful of your climbing style and the impact you have on the tree.

Has anyone tried the new Dragonfly rope? I heard that it is being manufactured by NewEngland and is like the Fly except it is green. I'd love to hear a report.

D.R.T. = Developing Relationships w/Trees (perhaps it should be D.R.W.T.)

There is a growing group of tree climbers shifting over to using SRT, at least for access. There is no reason that anyone has to climb fast on SRT or DdRT.

Tre climbers are the only rope climbers that use a dynamic, in the sense of moving, rope system. All other rope workers leave the rope static, in the sense of not moving, and the climber moves on the rope. I've found that I can move around on SRT with just as much ease as DdRT. At the end of the day I've used a lot less energy since SRT is more closely a 1:1 system. Being lazy at heart any time I can save a calorie or two I do it.

Tom, do you find that switchovers when you're climbing exclusively SRT are more or less complicated than DdRT? Intuitively it feels like there are less moving parts to deal with doing switchovers DdRT. And more safety redundancy since you stay tied in to the first pitch until the second pitch is secured.

I don't have any SRT experience so I don't have anything to compare to. Since it is unlikely that you'd be carrying two sets of ascenders I guess you'd have to tie-off with a lanyard and take yourself off the SRT system to re-pitch to a new SRT tie-in.
-moss

Thanks for all the input... one question though: Do you use a second point of attachment, i.e. foot loop, or even foot lock? It seems to me, that you would get very tired doing body thrusting in mid air for 50+ ft. I've never ascended DdRT, only SRT, so please humor my questions! Thanks.

Treeman, what's the RAD system? I've never heard of that before.

Moss- I am in Binghamton, are you in upstate as well? If so, where are you?

mateo

no most of my ascents my TIP is high enough that I don't have to change over. If I do, I lanyard in and move the climbing line up the tree. I've been doing SRT access for over six years so it's natural to me.

Here's a link to the original RADS setup.

tinyurl.com/8lsrq

In the folowing pictures you'll see how I've modified the original RADS. In the first picture you'll see the I'd with a small cord on the left. Look at the second picture to see how this works

Take a look at how the cord attaches to the release bar on the Shunt. Using the DMM roller biner eliminates a biner/pulley.

The length of the cord gets set so that as the climber descends the Shunt tails along keeping it within reach.

To ascend the climber footlocks the tail of the rope after it comes out of the Roller biner. Or, just pull up on the rope. Since the system is a 2:1 it makes for an easy ascent.

Body thrusting doesn't work very well for mid-air ascent unless you are part ape. Efficient body thrust technique requires contact with the trunk or limbs. For mid-air ascent you could use a prusik foot loop, footlock the tail or use an ascender like a Petzl Pantin attached to one foot.

To your other question...
I've spent some time in central NY state/southern Adirondacks, just wondering where you're located. I'm currently in eastern Mass.
-moss

Thanks for the input. I'll have to try some DdRT ascents once I get some rope able to do that! I've long wondered about the "mechanics" or advancing the working end by pulling on the running, then advancing the hitch while footlocking or footlooping. Sounds akward, but it has worked for many more before me, so it shouldn't be too bad.
I'm in Binghamton, Moss, that's about 10 miles from the PA border about right in the middle of the state. About 3 hours south-east Utica (the last large city before the 'Dacks).

mateo

When you footlock the running end for example, you can develop a nice rhythm pulling down the rope and pushing up the hitch. When you use a prusik foot loop it does slow things down a little (not a bad thing sometimes) since you have to push up the prusik and your main hitch in two motions. For longer ascents you can automatically advance the hitch with a small prusik on the working end attached to a pulley or snap just below the hitch on the running end. This means all you have to do is pull down on the running end, saves quite a bit of energy on a long ascent.

I've lived in several small towns north and south of Utica, great trees but a long drive
-moss